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D&D 5E 5E and the OGL

Oni

First Post
As a player and a customer I love the OGL. It allows for a wide range of products, and options for the game. But that brings up:

During my 3e days, I very rarely purchased anything from WoTC. I have a few of their rule books, but the bulk of my gaming money was spent on 3pp products. I'm guessing I'm not a truly unique person.

So what incentive does WoTC have to use the OGL? It might be great for the players, but if it doesn't translate into any added income... Why do it? (Would you go out of your way to take on say working an extra day a week at work without compensation?)

Well if you hadn't been able to buy all those third party products would you have poured that money into WotC stuff instead, or without all those third party products to use and supplement your WotC purchases would you have likely bought less of WotC's products.
 

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DMKastmaria

First Post
:hmm: Have ANY retro clones been subject to a court proceeding yet? The only time I have heard of wotc taking any steps was when they verbally asked the OSRIC author to C&D, which he refused, confident living in another country would deter WotC from taking actual legal action.

No. No retro-clone has been legally challenged by WotC.

Here's Stuart Marshall's account of his being contacted by WotC - with the EnWorld Permalink, first:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/257909-question-scott-rouse-re-retroclones-6.html#post4836110

I was, in fact, never in direct correspondence with WOTC legal.

I did receive an email from Rich Redman, then Brand Licensing Manager, but not a lawyer. He wanted me to cease distribution of OSRIC. His grounds were that OSRIC was not compliant with the D20 license.

I wrote back to Mr Redman and explained that OSRIC didn't pretend to be compliant with the D20 license, and was in fact entirely reliant on the OGL.

Mr Redman apologised for not adequately doing his homework and then said he wanted me to cease distribution of OSRIC anyway. His basic point was the duck test: OSRIC looks like 1e, it quacks like 1e, so in his view it must be wrong to distribute it.

I replied highlighting various points of fact and various representations WOTC had already made, both in public and in private correspondence.

Mr Redman said this was beyond him and he would get WOTC legal to contact me.

This was in August 2006 and I'm still waiting for their email. I suspect they've figured it out, though, and will never pursue the matter.
 

Scribble

First Post
Well if you hadn't been able to buy all those third party products would you have poured that money into WotC stuff instead, or without all those third party products to use and supplement your WotC purchases would you have likely bought less of WotC's products.

Can't say for sure, but with 4e (and no real OGL to speak of) I have bought a lot more WoTC product.

Could be coincidence, but...
 

IronWolf

blank
Here's Stuart Marshall's account of his being contacted by WotC - with the EnWorld Permalink, first:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/257909-question-scott-rouse-re-retroclones-6.html#post4836110

Permalinks break for people that use a different number of posts per page. It is better to link to the post number link as it does not make a reference to the page the post is on in the URL.

Here is a link that should work for everyone:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/4836110-post77.html
 

Henry

Autoexreginated
Well if you hadn't been able to buy all those third party products would you have poured that money into WotC stuff instead, or without all those third party products to use and supplement your WotC purchases would you have likely bought less of WotC's products.

In my case, the answer would have been "no," because the stuff I bought as a consumer of 3rd party publishing would not have been published by WotC, intentionally, as they did not feel there was enough market to pursue, and said so at the same time they were releasing the OGL. For example, my purchases included:

-Spycraft
-Black Company Campaign setting & rules
-Mutants and Masterminds
-Grim Tales (basically a mix of d20 modern and D&D with extras from 3pp's all over the place blended with a "Ben Durbin" style)
-Arcane Strife (Tim Willard's spell compendium that made Book of Vile -Darkness look like a child's book)

That's only a sampling, but none of these interested WotC enough to decide to publish them -- and for good reason; they learned that the more niche a product, the less sales it got, to the point of being losing propositions. This would not have changed without an OGL, because there was no OGL prior to 2000, and books like "A Mighty Fortress", or "Birthright", or "Al-Qadim" or "Dark Sun" (stuff I liked back in the 90's) contributed to them losing their shirts. However, a 2 or 5 or 10 man company could produce something like that starting about 10 years ago, and maybe even make a profit off of it.

The OGL came along, tinkerers got their way, WotC made their big umbrella products to make money, and everyone was happy -- at least until 2004 or so.
 

triqui

Adventurer
You keep stating declaratively that WotC won't do this, and then stating why they won't do it. Unless you work at WotC and have the authority to decide if they use the OGL in Fifth Edition, you need to stop doing that. You don't know what their decision will be, nor how they'll reach it.
Fine. Add "Imho" before the sentence.

Moreover, as I've stated previously, the answer to your asking "so what?" is post hoc ergo propter hoc. WotC is smart enough to realize that just posting the OGL was not the cause of Paizo becoming a major competitor to them.
It's not the cause, but it is a prerrequiste. They (as any other company) don't want major competitors. So if they can *avoid* the rise of competitors not giving them a prerrequisite, they'd do (imho and all that jazz)

Your analogy is fundamentally flawed, because it misunderstands the nature of the difference between allowing for the possibility that something could happen, and the actual cause of something happening. This misunderstanding has been a recurring theme in all of the analogies you've made on this topic to date.
Your calling of the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy is flawed, because you think it needs to be a causal relation. It does not. It is enough with a correlation. The fallacy is when you assume a relation because of the before-after, and the relation is not there. My father used to eat a lot of pork, and read a lot of books. He had a heart attack. Saying "my father read books, and he had a heart attack", is a fallacy. But eating a lot of pork actually *does* relates to heart attacks. If my father, after his heart attack, decides to stop reading, he is a fool. If he decides to stop eating a lot of pork, then he is wise.

This "serie of circumstances" that you note include, among other things, the actual cause(s) of Paizo's becoming WotC's major competitor among RPGs, which is the point of talking about the "after it, therefore because of it" fallacy.
Completelly irrelevant for WotC point of view. What WotC wants, is to impede competition. Which he could had achieved not releasing OGL.

WotC left his kitchen gas open. There was a spark, and the kitchen blew. Was the explosion caused by the gas open? Of course not. It was caused by the spark. Is it wise to keep the gas closed? Sure, because it is a necessary prerrequisite, which makes the explosion possible. Without it, there's no explosion. And without OGL, there's no Pathfinder. Even if all the other circumstances (including sparks, and 4e "mmo-like" system) are the same.

Again, that's not relevant to the discussion we're having. Simply allowing for the possibility that something can lead to something else does not mean that it's what causes that something else to occur. Saying that releasing the OGL is what made Paizo become WotC's major competitor is a fallacious statement.
Not allowing the possibility that something happens does mean that something can't occur, however.

A is necessary for B. A does not imply B, but No A implies no B.


There is a difference between meeting a prerequisite and actually making something happen. Meeting all of the prerequisites to taking levels in a prestige class is different from then actually taking levels in that prestige class.

But not having one of the prerrequisites is enough to forbid you to take class levels in the prestige class. WotC does not want other companies take levels in "major competitors for 5e", so denying them ONE of the prerrequisites is enough to keep the other companies in their basic "warrior" class.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Fine. Add "Imho" before the sentence.

Oh, I do. It's just nice to know that you do too.

It's not the cause, but it is a prerrequiste. They (as any other company) don't want major competitors. So if they can *avoid* the rise of competitors not giving them a prerrequisite, they'd do (imho and all that jazz)

I don't necessarily agree with that line of thinking, nor that it's necessarily applicable here. Between the "OGL as enlightened self-interest" idea, and the related "other RPGs aren't competitors; other hobbies are" idea, there's certainly room for seeing the OGL as being good for WotC, even by the people at WotC.

Your calling of the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy is flawed, because you think it needs to be a causal relation. It does not. It is enough with a correlation. The fallacy is when you assume a relation because of the before-after, and the relation is not there.

The fallacy itself is presented when someone - such as you, in your previous posts - presents a correlation as a causation, without it being so. You stated that WotC will see the causation of Paizo's success with Pathfinder as being because of the Open Game License. Unto itself, however, that view is demonstrably false, as the simple existence of the Open Game License by itself was not enough to cause (rather than simply allowing for the possibility of) Pathfinder, let alone it's current success.

By your own definition, you have assumed a causal relationship simply because one thing followed another, when that relationship is not there.

My father used to eat a lot of pork, and read a lot of books. He had a heart attack. Saying "my father read books, and he had a heart attack", is a fallacy. But eating a lot of pork actually *does* relates to heart attacks. If my father, after his heart attack, decides to stop reading, he is a fool. If he decides to stop eating a lot of pork, then he is wise.

The relating needs to be causal for it to not be post hoc ergo propter hoc. Simply allowing for something to be possible is not the same as making it happen.

Completelly irrelevant for WotC point of view. What WotC wants, is to impede competition. Which he could had achieved not releasing OGL.

Your lack of "IMHO" is showing again. :p

WotC left his kitchen gas open. There was a spark, and the kitchen blew. Was the explosion caused by the gas open? Of course not. It was caused by the spark. Is it wise to keep the gas closed? Sure, because it is a necessary prerrequisite, which makes the explosion possible. Without it, there's no explosion. And without OGL, there's no Pathfinder. Even if all the other circumstances (including sparks, and 4e "mmo-like" system) are the same.

See above for why this analogy doesn't work.

Not allowing the possibility that something happens does mean that something can't occur, however.

A is necessary for B. A does not imply B, but No A implies no B.

That's not relevant to the discussion we're having. A lack of A resulting in a lack of B does not mean that A's presence thusly causes B's presence.

Saying that something is dependent on something else does not mean that it is caused by that thing. You keep insisting that it does, which is an "after it, therefore because of it" fallacy.

But not having one of the prerrequisites is enough to forbid you to take class levels in the prestige class. WotC does not want other companies take levels in "major competitors for 5e", so denying them ONE of the prerrequisites is enough to keep the other companies in their basic "warrior" class.

See above for the problems with necessarily assuming, as you do, that WotC even sees Pathfinder as a competitor to begin with. Likewise, saying that they'll not use the OGL again because they don't want another Pathfinder to deal with is post hoc ergo propter hoc. Again.
 

drothgery

First Post
In my case, the answer would have been "no," because the stuff I bought as a consumer of 3rd party publishing would not have been published by WotC, intentionally, as they did not feel there was enough market to pursue, and said so at the same time they were releasing the OGL. For example, my purchases included:

-Spycraft
-Black Company Campaign setting & rules
-Mutants and Masterminds
-Grim Tales (basically a mix of d20 modern and D&D with extras from 3pp's all over the place blended with a "Ben Durbin" style)
-Arcane Strife (Tim Willard's spell compendium that made Book of Vile -Darkness look like a child's book)
... the thing is, being the kind of person who hangs out a lot at ENWorld, I bought a lot of OGL games. But I never played a non-WotC OGL game in person, and M&M is the only non-WotC OGL game I ever played at all.
 

Oni

First Post
WotC left his kitchen gas open. There was a spark, and the kitchen blew. Was the explosion caused by the gas open? Of course not. It was caused by the spark. Is it wise to keep the gas closed? Sure, because it is a necessary prerrequisite, which makes the explosion possible. Without it, there's no explosion. And without OGL, there's no Pathfinder. Even if all the other circumstances (including sparks, and 4e "mmo-like" system) are the same.

Except the OGL was less like leaving the gas on and more like owning a gas stove. Leaving the gas on is not unlike any one of the many stupid mistakes WotC made by not using their kitchen appliances (the OGL) with forethought and responsibility. Sure you could remove the chance of a gas explosion in your kitchen by not owning a gas stove, but such an action isn't necessary if you use it intelligently.
 

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
Went back through and read this thread and something struck me. Well, that's not true. It's the same thought that always strikes me when I hear this argument: there is so little actual evidence that the OGL has any actual effect on the success of an edition.

I mean, you could point to the D&D Miniatures and say that that's the reason that 4e "failed". After all, DDM was very popular during 3e and 3.5 and quite likely had a pretty strong effect on D&D sales as DDM was strongly linked to 3e books. They were being sold side by side, advertised side by side and very strongly pushed side by side by WOTC. How much of an effect did DDM have on 3e sales?

Now, 4e didn't have DDM because the bottom fell out of plastic crack. 4e was not tied to any tabletop wargame at all.

The argument that I see goes something like this. 3e had the OGL, 4e didn't. 3e was very successful and 4e wasn't. Therefore, we should have the OGL in 5e.

Yet, you can make almost exactly the same argument for DDM. Did 3e do well because of 3rd party support externalities, or was it partially (in large or small) driven by the wild success of the DDM line? Was the death of the DDM line the signal for the release of 4e? After all, they do coincide. And, did the lack of some sort of tabletop wargame play a role in the lackluster performance of 4e?

See, I look at all the back and forth and I notice a few things. The people really, really pushing for OGL have a vested interest in it. So, there's a pretty obvious bias going on here. Yet, for all the obvious complexities of this issue, we hear time and time again the same old refrain - no OGL=no success.

I'm just very tired of people trying to simplify the issue to such black and white lines without any regard for the changes that the hobby has gone through in the past few years.


Did D&D see a resurgence in (large?) part because of the OGL? Did 3.XE start to drop off with the lack of OGL support that WotC had decided was the future of D&D in the mid-2000s? Did DDM begin to flag when 3.XE began to flag? Did 4E have such a hard time because a revised form of 3.XE under the OGL was still thriving? Will 5E manage to find success without making use of the OGL? Argue against the success of the OGL or how much that success was shared with 3.XE or how much it was denied 4E or how much it might or might not help 5E all you like.

The OGL doesn't care. The OGL is unaffected by our opinions, our speculation, or the success or failure of products that do or do not use the OGL. But of the things you mention (OGL, 3e, 4e, 5e, DDM, even D&D for that matter), there's only one that we know with certainty will still be around in ten years, twenty years, or even fifty years, and that is the OGL.
 
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