5E: Converting Monsters from White Dwarf Magazine for Fifth Edition

[ilgatto]

I like stats in 5e that push players into using different modes of attack.

As a bit of an aside, and something which you're probably aware of, many of the monsters Don Turnbull "detailed" in Monsters Mild and Malign (e.g., WD4 and WD5) are pretty weird and wonderful. I guess they're not strictly White Dwarf monsters, but still something you could really sink your teeth into.
Also, have you heard of Erol Otus' Booty and the Beasts (e.g., here)? That's got some weird (and often quite powerful) monsters (and mechanics) in it as well.

P.S.: WHOA! Also found this looking for the links above, of which I'd never heard until now. Must... have...

 

[Cleon]

Hmm... I'd say that using "any alignment" would be confusing, for it suggests that a DM can pick any alignment that would take his fancy, perhaps following such reasoning as "why shouldn't there be a chaotic good green dragon?". Coincidentally (not), this has been done before:

I definitely prefer neutral for the alignment.

As I understand from the below, higher Intelligence would also solve the 5E DWs having an alignment problem?

Well it'd be simple enough to add +2 INT across the board, so the range goes from White with INT 3 to Gold with INT 9, which won't do much game mechanically but would put the average overall Intelligence at 6, the same as a 5E Common Skeleton.

Heck, that would even justify us changing the Languages so it can speak Common and Draconic if we desire them to have the gift of loquaciousness.

Would you and Casimir prefer that to the current INT parade?

 

[ilgatto]

I definitely prefer neutral for the alignment

Not a problem.

Well it'd be simple enough to add +2 INT across the board, so the range goes from White with INT 3 to Gold with INT 9, which won't do much game mechanically but would put the average overall Intelligence at 6, the same as a 5E Common Skeleton.

Heck, that would even justify us changing the Languages so it can speak Common and Draconic if we desire them to have the gift of loquaciousness.

Would you and Casimir prefer that to the current INT parade?

In light of the notion that Intelligence could mean "the equivalent of" INT, I'd like INT to be even higher, on par with the average human. I've seen that INT can run up to 30 but I assume that 3d6 are still rolled in 5E (or some point system used that would lead to humans have INT 10 on average)?
Also, I'd have no problem with some creature having INT 10 and then not being able to speak, but maybe that's a problem in 5E?
I would see it either one way or the other: either some ultra-low INT as a reminder of the WD21 version, or INT 10 as average human (or thereabouts as dictated by parent dragon INT).
However, if that would run against several grains, I suppose it could be anything you suggest for reasons.

If INT would lead to an ability to speak in 5E, I'd say why not give them the ability to speak. I can see them rising from the ground in all their monstrousness and shout something along the lines of: "Dragon warriors ready to fight! Command us!".
But then in Greek, of course. Or Persian. Or Scythian.

 

[Cleon]

Not a problem.

In light of the notion that Intelligence could mean "the equivalent of" INT, I'd like INT to be even higher, on par with the average human. I've seen that INT can run up to 30 but I assume that 3d6 are still rolled in 5E (or some point system used that would lead to humans have INT 10 on average)?
Also, I'd have no problem with some creature having INT 10 and then not being able to speak, but maybe that's a problem in 5E?
I would see it either one way or the other: either some ultra-low INT as a reminder of the WD21 version, or INT 10 as average human (or thereabouts as dictated by parent dragon INT).
However, if that would run against several grains, I suppose it could be anything you suggest for reasons.

If INT would lead to an ability to speak in 5E, I'd say why not give them the ability to speak. I can see them rising from the ground in all their monstrousness and shout something along the lines of: "Dragon warriors ready to fight! Command us!".
But then in Greek, of course. Or Persian. Or Scythian.

In 5E all ability scores can go from 1 (–5 modifier) to 30 (+10 modifier). Like in AD&D's ability range that tops out at 25 this is a hard limit that cannot be exceeded no matter how godlike the creature. It's not like 3E or 4E were ability scores can go to Infinity And Beyond.

Since the original monster was mindless I'm not in favour of giving them INT scores on par to a human but have no objection to making them low-sapient levels on Intelligence like a Gnoll, Troglodyte, or Worg.

Incidentally, the stupidest creature I could find in the Monster Manual with the gift of language has Intelligence 4, the Monodrone who can speak Modron.

There are way more examples of language users with Intelligence 5: I found the Vine Blight (Common), Hezrou Demon (Abyssal), White Dragon Wyrmling (Draconic), Earth Elemental (Terran), Water Elemental (Aquan), Hill Giant (Giant) and Ogre (also Giant).

There are creatures with lower Intelligence that can understand languages but can't speak. The dumbest of those in the Monster Manual is INT 1: the Lemure. That's the stupidest it's possible to be in 5E.

However, if I remember correctly 5E still allows a player to use the "roll 3 to 18" method for generating ability scores, which means that it must be possible to have an INT 3 creature able to speak a language otherwise the PC wouldn't be able to talk!

Note that 5E doesn't have negative ability modifiers in the core rules, so it's impossible for a stock PC to have INT 1 or 2.

 

[Cleon]

By the way, reading through the 5E Monster Manual I discovered that it's quite possible to have an unaligned creature with a decent intelligent and the ability to comprehend speech. The Giant Elk (INT 7) can speak "Giant Elk" and understand Common, Elvish and Sylvan but can't speak them. I'm not sure how an unaligned creature, which "have no comprehension of law or chaos, good or evil. They don't make moral or ethical choices, but rather act on instinct" could understand four languages. Guess it's one of those mysteries of nature.

 

[ilgatto]

Incidentally, the stupidest creature I could find in the Monster Manual with the gift of language has Intelligence 4, the Monodrone who can speak Modron.

Heh. "Stupid" being the operative word. Sorry, couldn't help myself.

 

[ilgatto]

By the way, reading through the 5E Monster Manual I discovered that it's quite possible to have an unaligned creature with a decent intelligent and the ability to comprehend speech. The Giant Elk (INT 7) can speak "Giant Elk" and understand Common, Elvish and Sylvan but can't speak them. I'm not sure how an unaligned creature, which "have no comprehension of law or chaos, good or evil. They don't make moral or ethical choices, but rather act on instinct" could understand four languages. Guess it's one of those mysteries of nature.

Or something for your new thread!

 

[Cleon]

Just remembered that I'd forgotten to check how Parry would affect the CRs of the Dragon Warriors.

According to the CR Calculator it adds +1 to the Challenge, making the Challenge 3s into 4s, 4s into 5s, and 5s into 6s.

That doesn't seem right, but then the "Monster Features" adjustments sometimes give peculiar results. The calculator claims Nimble Escape is worth +2 to Challenge while Pack Tactics makes little impact on the results.

Basically the calculator appears to be evaluating it as if Parry applies its AC against ALL attacks, when in fact it only applies to its AC against one melee attack that would hit the dragon warrior. So if the warrior is hit by multiple attacks only one of them can get parried, and the reaction is ineffective against ranged attacks.

Still, I'm thinking I should drop Parry to be on the safe side. I was already slightly concerned that it made the Warriors too hard to hit, considering they already have an excellent AC, and the CR Calculator objecting to the feature might clinch it.

Still, I would like to give Dragon Warriors some "Martial Feature" to make them more, well, Warrior like. Maybe some Riposte Reaction?

Will have to think about it…

 

[ilgatto]

In 5E all ability scores can go from 1 (–5 modifier) to 30 (+10 modifier). Like in AD&D's ability range that tops out at 25 this is a hard limit that cannot be exceeded no matter how godlike the creature. It's not like 3E or 4E were ability scores can go to Infinity And Beyond.

Since the original monster was mindless I'm not in favour of giving them INT scores on par to a human but have no objection to making them low-sapient levels on Intelligence like a Gnoll, Troglodyte, or Worg.

Incidentally, the stupidest creature I could find in the Monster Manual with the gift of language has Intelligence 4, the Monodrone who can speak Modron.

There are way more examples of language users with Intelligence 5: I found the Vine Blight (Common), Hezrou Demon (Abyssal), White Dragon Wyrmling (Draconic), Earth Elemental (Terran), Water Elemental (Aquan), Hill Giant (Giant) and Ogre (also Giant).

There are creatures with lower Intelligence that can understand languages but can't speak. The dumbest of those in the Monster Manual is INT 1: the Lemure. That's the stupidest it's possible to be in 5E.

However, if I remember correctly 5E still allows a player to use the "roll 3 to 18" method for generating ability scores, which means that it must be possible to have an INT 3 creature able to speak a language otherwise the PC wouldn't be able to talk!

Note that 5E doesn't have negative ability modifiers in the core rules, so it's impossible for a stock PC to have INT 1 or 2.

So I guess that means that INT must be at least 3 for a creature to speak? So would that mean that the white DWs wouldn't be able to speak as per the DWs' Intelligence scores in your table and that the others could if we'd make them able to communicate? That seems odd.

Dragon Warrior
Medium monstrosity, neutral
Armor Class [see below](natural armor)
Hit Points [see below]
Speed 30 ft.

Dragon Warriors Statistics Table

Type​	AC​	Hit Points​	STR​	DEX​	CON​	INT​	WIS​	CHA​	Challenge​
Black	16​	65 (10d8+20)​	18 (+4)​	14 (+2)​	14 (+2)​	3 (–4)​	13 (+1)​	11 (+0)​	3 (700 XP)​
Blue	17​	71 (11d8+22)​	18 (+4)​	10 (+0)​	15 (+2)​	4 (–3)​	15 (+2)​	13 (+1)​	4 (1,100 XP)​
Green	17​	71 (11d8+22)​	18 (+4)​	12 (+1)​	15 (+2)​	6 (–2)​	15 (+2)​	11 (+0)​	4 (1,100 XP)​
Red	19​	82 (11d8+33)​	18 (+4)​	10 (+0)​	17 (+3)​	5 (–3)​	13 (+1)​	14 (+2)​	5 (1,800 XP)​
White	16​	60 (8d8+24)​	18 (+4)​	10 (+0)​	17 (+3)​	1 (–5)​	12 (+1)​	9 (–1)​	3 (700 XP)​
Brass	16​	65 (10d8+20)​	18 (+4)​	10 (+0)​	14 (+2)​	3 (–4)​	13 (+1)​	11 (+0)​	3 (700 XP)​
Bronze	18​	75 (10d8+30)​	18 (+4)​	10 (+0)​	17 (+3)​	4 (–3)​	15 (+2)​	13 (+1)​	4 (1,100 XP)​
Copper	17​	65 (10d8+20)​	18 (+4)​	10 (+0)​	15 (+2)​	6 (–2)​	15 (+2)​	11 (+0)​	3 (700 XP)​
Gold	20​	90 (12d8+36)​	18 (+4)​	14 (+2)​	17 (+3)​	5 (–3)​	15 (+2)​	14 (+2)​	6 (2,300 XP)​
Silver	19​	82 (11d8+33)​	18 (+4)​	12 (+1)​	17 (+3)​	4 (–3)​	13 (+1)​	13 (+1)​	5 (1,800 XP)​

Saving Throws [Proficient in DEX, CON, WIS, CHA.]
 STR +7 if gold, red or red; otherwise +6
 CON +6 if gold or red; +5 if white; otherwise +4
 WIS +5 if gold; +4 if blue, bronze, copper, green or red; +3 if black, brass, silver or white
 CHA +5 if gold or red; +3 if blue, bronze or silver; +2 if black, brass, copper or green; +1 if white
Skills [Proficient in Perception and Stealth.]
 Perception +5 if gold; +4 if blue, bronze, copper, green or red; Perception +3 if black, brass, silver or white
 Stealth +5 if gold; +4 if black; +3 if green or silver; +2 if blue, brass, bronze, copper, red or white
Damage Immunities acid if black or copper; cold if silver or white; fire if brass, gold or red; lightning if blue or bronze; poison if green
Condition Immunities charmed, frightened, paralyzed; poisoned if green
Senses blindsight 10 ft., darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 15 if gold; 14 if blue, bronze, copper, green or red; Perception 13 if black, brass, silver or white
Languages Understands Common, Draconic but can't speak
Challenge 3 (700 XP) if black, brass, copper or white; 4 (1,100 XP) if blue, bronze, green or silver; 5 (1,800) if gold or red
Proficiency Bonus +3 if gold or red; otherwise +2

Dragonscale Equipment. The dragon warrior's armor and longsword are part of its body, formed from its own living scales.

Dragonscale Weapon Master (Gold or Red Dragon Warrior Only). A dragonscale weapon deals 3 (1d6) extra damage when the dragon warrior hits with it (included in the attack).

Dragonscale Weapon Master (Silver Dragon Warrior Only). A dragonscale weapon deals 2 (1d4) extra damage when the dragon warrior hits with it (included in the attack).

Dust to Dust. If the dragon warrior dies its body and dragonscale equipment immediately crumbles to dust. If any part of its body, including an item of dragonscale equipment, is separated from the dragon warrior for more than 1 minute it will also crumble into dust.

Dragon Warriors Combat Table

Type​	Element​	To Hit​	Longsword​	Lethal Spit​	Metal Spit​
Black	acid​	+6​	2×13 (1d10+4 slashing plus 1d6 acid)​	## (#d# acid)?​	—​
Blue	lightning​	+6​	2×13 (1d10+4 slashing plus 1d6 lightning)​	## (#d# lightning)?​	—​
Green	poison (poisoned)​	+6​	2×13 (1d10+4 slashing plus 1d6 poison)​	## (#d# poison)?​	—​
Red	fire​	+7​	2×18 (1d10+1d6+4 slashing plus 2d4 fire)​	## (#d# fire)?​	—​
White	cold​	+6​	2×13 (1d10+4 slashing plus 1d6 cold)​	## (#d# cold)?​	—​
Brass	fire​	+6​	2×9½ (1d10+4 slashing)​	## (#d# fire)?​	DC## (sleep)?​
Bronze	lightning​	+6​	3×9½ (1d10+4 slashing)​	## (#d# lightning)?​	DC## (slowed)?​
Copper	acid​	+6​	2×9½ (1d10+4 slashing)​	## (#d# acid)?​	DC## (repulsion)?​
Gold	fire​	+7​	3×13 (1d10+1d6+4 slashing)​	## (#d# fire)?​	DC## (paralyzed)?​
Silver	cold​	+7​	3×12 (1d10+1d4+4 slashing)​	## (#d# cold)?​	DC## (weakened)?​

Actions

Multiattack. The dragon warrior makes two melee attacks.

Longsword (Chromatic Black Dragon Warrior). Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 8 (1d8 + 4) slashing damage plus 3 (1d6) acid damage, or 9 (1d10 + 4) slashing damage plus 3 (1d6) acid damage if used with two hands.

Longsword (Chromatic Blue Dragon Warrior). Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 8 (1d8 + 4) slashing damage plus 3 (1d6) lightning damage, or 9 (1d10 + 4) slashing damage plus 3 (1d6) lightning damage if used with two hands.

Longsword (Chromatic Green Dragon Warrior). Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 8 (1d8 + 4) slashing damage plus 3 (1d6) poison damage, or 9 (1d10 + 4) slashing damage plus 3 (1d6) poison damage if used with two hands.

Longsword (Chromatic Red Dragon Warrior). Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 12 (1d8 + 1d6 + 4) slashing damage plus 5 (2d4) fire damage, or 13 (1d10 + 1d6 + 4) slashing damage plus 5 (2d4) fire damage if used with two hands.

Longsword (Chromatic White Dragon Warrior). Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 8 (1d8 + 4) slashing damage plus 3 (1d6) cold damage, or 9 (1d10 + 4) slashing damage plus 3 (1d6) cold damage if used with two hands.

Longsword (Metallic Brass, Copper or Bronze Dragon Warrior). Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 8 (1d8 + 4) slashing damage, or 9 (1d10 + 4) slashing damage if used with two hands.

Longsword (Metallic Gold Dragon Warrior). Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 12 (1d8 + 1d6 + 4) slashing damage, or 13 (1d10 + 1d6 + 4) slashing damage if used with two hands.

Longsword (Metallic Silver Dragon Warrior). Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 11 (1d8 + 1d4 + 4) slashing damage, or 12 (1d10 + 1d4 + 4) slashing damage if used with two hands.

Bonus Actions

Flashing Steel (Bronze, Gold or Silver Dragon Warriors Only). The dragon warrior makes one melee attack.

Reactions

Reaction. ???.
 ???.

 

[Cleon]

Just remembered that I'd forgotten to check how Parry would affect the CRs of the Dragon Warriors.

According to the CR Calculator it adds +1 to the Challenge, making the Challenge 3s into 4s, 4s into 5s, and 5s into 6s.

That doesn't seem right, but then the "Monster Features" adjustments sometimes give peculiar results. The calculator claims Nimble Escape is worth +2 to Challenge while Pack Tactics makes little impact on the results.

Basically the calculator appears to be evaluating it as if Parry applies its AC against ALL attacks, when in fact it only applies to its AC against one melee attack that would hit the dragon warrior. So if the warrior is hit by multiple attacks only one of them can get parried, and the reaction is ineffective against ranged attacks.

Still, I'm thinking I should drop Parry to be on the safe side. I was already slightly concerned that it made the Warriors too hard to hit, considering they already have an excellent AC, and the CR Calculator objecting to the feature might clinch it.

Still, I would like to give Dragon Warriors some "Martial Feature" to make them more, well, Warrior like. Maybe some Riposte Reaction?

Will have to think about it…

Just to check, I ran some official creatures with Parry through the CR Calculator.

The Hobgoblin Warlord is Challenge 6. Calculator says CR 6 with Parry (Offensive CR 5, Defensive CR 7, Effective AC 23) or without Parry (Def.CR 6, Eff.AC 22).

The Bandit Captain is Challenge 2. Calculator says CR 3 with Parry (Off.CR 3, Def.CR 2, Eff.AC 17) or without (Off.CR 3, Def.CR 2, Eff.AC 18).

The Gladiator is Challenge 5. Calculator says CR 6 with Parry (Off.CR 6, Def.CR 6, Eff.AC 19) or without (Off.CR 6, Def.CR 5, Eff.AC 18).

The Knight is Challenge 3. Calculator says CR 3 with Parry (Off.CR 3, Def.CR 3, Eff.AC 19) or without (Def.CR 2; Eff.AC 18).

The Noble is Challenge 1/8. Calculator says CR 1/4 with Parry (Off.CR 1/4, Def.CR 1/4, Eff.AC 16) or without (Eff.AC 15).

Didn't try the Death Knight, Erinyes, Marilith or Drow Elite Warrior.

Hmm, the CR Calculator claims some of these melee opponents with Parry have a Challenge a little higher than its official CR.

Oddly, it's the ones with the slightly worse AC it does that to. The AC 18 Knight and AC 20 Hobgob Warlord calculate to their SRD Challenge Ratings.

Maybe the Dragon Warriors are balanced with Parry despite what the Calculator claims? I'm becoming less confident by the minute.

Never mind, I'll just leave them with Parry for the time being. Challenge Ratings are not an exact science!