5E: Converting Monsters from White Dwarf Magazine for Fifth Edition

[Cleon]

Right - had to start somewhere when making them so used a zombie template, which was silly now I look back at it. Have adjusted dex to 14.

The latest version also has its Strength adjusted up to 15 (+2). Why is that?

I think they're fine with Strength 13 (+1) like the previous version.

They are a foot shorter than Bugbears, so needn't match them in muscle.

A 5E Wight may have Strength 15 like a Bugbear, but they're also higher CR than we're aiming for.

Besides, Strength 13 is good enough for 5E Ghouls.

Con to 12 (figure this is due to pine sap and hardened bodies) - HD 5 + 5 giving 27hp.

Okay by me, it doesn't make much difference to the Con 10 or 11 (+0) and HD 6d8 (27 hp) alternative I suggested.

Have buffed their Wisdom to 10 - they're not supposed to be such good spellcasters. And cantrips (which they need to remember to use - approx 50% of the time in practice), giving them a (hopefully) slightly unpredictiable mix of minor spells and melee attacks that the party can't second guess easily.

Anyway...after midnight here (Oz) and I have to be up by 7am (groan....)

Where are you getting the idea "they're not supposed to be such good spellcasters" from?

The original monster could cast one 1st-level spell per day. That's the same as a 1st-level cleric can manage in 1E AD&D unless they have a high Wisdom (Wis 13 gives them two 1st-level spells per day, 14+ gives them three).

Admittedly, unlike most editions druids in 1E get more spells/day than clerics and a 1st-level druid gets two 1st-level spells per day (plus bonuses for high Wisdom as above), but one 1st-level spell isn't exactly trivial in 1E.

In any case, I think you'd be better off giving one set of spells/cantrips as a default and if you want to offer alternative spellcasting options put the suggestions in the description.

Basically, I'd use something like this:

Spellcasting The pine kindred is a 1st-level spellcaster that used Wisdom as its spellcasting ability (spell save DC ##; +# to hit with spell attacks). Pine kindred cast spells from the druid's spell list.

Cantrips (at will): one cantrip
1st level (1 slot): one spell​

Speaking of spellcasting, doesn't it need to, well, be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components?

Surely that implies they have normal language use rather than "understands the languages it knew in life but can't speak" in the current version's Languages.

Let's see, Ghouls have "Languages Common" and Wights have "Languages the languages it knew in life" so perhaps give the Pine Kindred one of those two?

No, scrub that. How about "Languages Druidic, Sylvan" to emphasize their inhumanity and ties to the woods?

 

[Cleon]

The spell immunity sounds like a 1e arbitrary issue that doesn't make sense in some cases (i.e. immune to fireball but vulnerable to nonmagic fire).

Almost forgot, I'd already thought of a solution. Just modify the Fey Blood trait, as in:

Child of the Briar (Open Design)
Fey Blood. Children of the briar count as both plant and fey for any effect related to type.

To make, say:

Pine Blood. Pine kindred count as both plant and undead for any effect related to type.

 

[Cleon]

Spellcasting The pine kindred is a 1st-level spellcaster that used Wisdom as its spellcasting ability (spell save DC ##; +# to hit with spell attacks). Pine kindred cast spells from the druid's spell list.

Cantrips (at will): one cantrip
1st level (1 slot): one spell

I was thinking pine kindred might prepare spells more like a sorcerer or wizard than a druid (i.e. each of them knows a druid spell or two but they can't prepare them from the entire druid's spell list), but I forgot to explain it.

So something like:

Spellcasting The pine kindred is a 1st-level spellcaster that used Wisdom as its spellcasting ability (spell save DC ##; +# to hit with spell attacks). It knows 2 cantrips and 3 spells it can choose to prepare after a long rest, but cannot cast any other spells. Kindred normally cast spells from the druid's spell list. A typical pine kindred has the following spells prepared.​

​

Cantrips (at will): one cantrip​

1st level (1 slot): one spell​

or maybe:

Spellcasting A pine kindred is a 1st-level spellcaster that used Wisdom as its spellcasting ability (spell save DC ##; +# to hit with spell attacks). Normal pine kindred cast spells from the druid's spell list. It knows a number of spells equal to its hit dice plus its Wisdom modifier. Most pine kindred know either the poison spray or produce flame cantrip plus the spells first, second, third, fourth, and fifth. The kindred can prepare its spells when it finishes a long rest, choosing from the list of spells it knows. A pine kindred has the following spells prepared:​

​

Cantrips (at will): one cantrip​

1st level (1 slot): one spell​

That's a bit far from standard spellcasting. Also, upon reflection it doesn't matter much since it's unlikely the Pine Kindred will have time or inclination to take a long rest and change its spell selection.

It seems simpler to use druidic-style preparation:

Spellcasting The pine kindred is a 1st-level spellcaster that used Wisdom as its spellcasting ability (spell save DC ##; +# to hit with spell attacks). A typical pine kindred has the following spells prepared from the druid's spell list.​

​

Cantrips (at will): poison spray​

1st level (1 slot): entangle​

​

Common alternatives include the cantrips produce flame or shillelagh and the spells charm person, faerie fire or thunderwave.​

For the "Flavour Expansion" I mentioned some time ago, I was thinking something along these lines:

Dark Druidic Mysteries Pine kindred know ancient and horrible secrets of nature forgotten by living druids. These include cantrips and spells that are not on the druid spell list, such as a wizard's ray of frost cantrip or silent image spell, a warlock's misty step, as well as strange and horrible rituals like the create pine kindred spell cast by pine kindred jarls.

I think that'll do for now. It should give us enough to talk about when next I check this thread!

 

[Casimir Liber]

Okay - much of your suggestions I agree with and have taken on board, so strength reduced, Pine blood, languages (I agree that a wight is a good analogue), and dropping charm immunity. I prefer the idea that they use melee attacks - if they use cantrips at will then they have no need to attack with weapons at all. The original 1e creature just had a 1st level spell useable once a day, so I like hte idea of keeping some sort of faith with that - hence my idea of a cantrip...but one that the kindred might "forget" to use half the time and just attack with its weapon. The idea of this is to also keep the players guessing (a bit like a hell hound breath weapon...when will it recharge?), and leave the thanes and jarls to do the dark druidic mysteries ( a concept I like very much!)

 

[Casimir Liber]

Thane updated:

 

[Casimir Liber]

And a go at the jarl...put the making of a pine kindred as a lair action...(????)

 

[Casimir Liber]

While we're at it, from the same White Dwarf issue is the enslaver. Have created/converted as I couldn't find an analogue when converting the dungeon I'm running to 5e...anyway...comments invited

 

[Cleon]

While we're at it, from the same White Dwarf issue is the enslaver. Have created/converted as I couldn't find an analogue when converting the dungeon I'm running to 5e...anyway...comments invited

It feels a bit premature to post the Enslaver. Would rather get the various versions of the Pine Kindred sorted first.

Will be heading out within a few minutes so don't have time to post further, so further work on those Pine kin will have to wait 'til later.

Ta-ta for now!

 

[Casimir Liber]

It feels a bit premature to post the Enslaver. Would rather get the various versions of the Pine Kindred sorted first.

Will be heading out within a few minutes so don't have time to post further, so further work on those Pine kin will have to wait 'til later.

Ta-ta for now!

ok no problem - can just keep it steady and one at a time..

 

[Cleon]

Okay - much of your suggestions I agree with and have taken on board, so strength reduced, Pine blood, languages (I agree that a wight is a good analogue), and dropping charm immunity.

The more I'm thinking about it, the more the Pine Kindred feels like we should bump them up a CR.

A wight is CR 3, after all, and giving a creature who's going to be roughly as good a fighter as a bugbear resistance to weapon damage plus low-level spellcasting is more like a CR 2 maybe?

Bugbears are CR 1, but a Pine Kindred is tougher. Unless their opponent has a magic weapon, the Kindred effectively has twice as many hit points against warrior-type opponents since it takes half damage.

Speaking of being toughness, I'm wondering why you've given them an Undead Fortitude special trait.

The original monster didn't have a "stepping back from death's door" type ability.

I'm guessing it's a carry-over from the original version being based on the Zombie rather than a Ghoul or Wight.

Shouldn't the Undead Fortitude be removed since, well, it's not a Zombie?

I prefer the idea that they use melee attacks - if they use cantrips at will then they have no need to attack with weapons at all.

Well a cantrip does relatively piddly damage, especially for a 1st-level spellcaster like a standard Pine Kindred. They should do more damage with their weapons.

For example, produce flame does 1d8, but it could easily do more than that with its sword.

Which reminds me, the original article says "the creature's favourite weapons are jagged sabres and throwing darts" so I'm wondering where the dart attack is?

In 1E AD&D darts are quite an effective weapon since, despite only doing 1d3 damage, they have a Rate Of Fire of 3. So that's three 1d3s, or 6 damage on average compared to 1d8 for a longsword.

I'm thinking that the Pine Kindred could have Multiattack with darts and maybe its sword.

Speaking of said sword, "sabre" covers quite a wide range of sword types, from light dueling blades to heavy cavalry choppers. The same applies to historical scimitars. Not all of them were lightweight finesse weapons like 3E/5E scimitar. In 1E AD&D, a scimitar did 1d8 damage against M-sized opponents, it wasn't a 1d6 damage weapon like the 3E/5E scimitar.

So how about giving the Pine Kindred a 1d8 damage sword like the Wight? We could just make it a Longsword like the wight, or make up some new weapon called a "Jagged Sabre" with similar stats.

I'd also reconsider making it Strength 15 (+2) but just chucking two darts at a time:

So something like:

Multiattack: The pine kindred makes two longsword attacks or three dart attacks.​

​

Dart: Ranged Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, range 20/60 ft., one target. Hit: 3 (1d4 + 1) piercing damage.​

​

Longsword: Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d8 + 1) slashing damage, or 6 (1d10 + 1) slashing damage if used with two hands.​

Assuming it hits but does not crit with all its attacks, that's an average total damage of 10.5 with darts (3d4+3) and 11 or 13 with longsword (2d8+2 or 2d10+2).

Or possibly:

Strength 15 (+2)​

​

Multiattack: The pine kindred makes two sabre attacks or two dart attacks.​

​

Sabre: Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 6 (1d8 + 2) slashing damage.​

​

Dart: Ranged Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, range 20/60 ft., one target. Hit: 4 (1d4 + 2) piercing damage.​

That's an average total damage of 9 with darts (2d4+4) and 13 with sabre (2d8+4).

At the moment I prefer Multiattack with scimitar and darts:

Multiattack: The pine kindred makes two sabre attacks or two dart attacks.​

​

Scimitar: Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 4 (1d6 + 1) slashing damage.​

​

Dart: Ranged Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, range 20/60 ft., one target. Hit: 3 (1d4 + 1) piercing damage.​

That's an average total damage of 7 with darts (2d4+2) and 9 with scimitar (2d6+2).

I could easily go for Strength 15 (+2) to make the darts 4 (1d4 + 2) and the scimitar 5 (1d6 + 2) for an average total of 9 & 11.

In any case, adding multiattack would further encourage me towards making the base kindred at least CR 2.

The original 1e creature just had a 1st level spell useable once a day, so I like hte idea of keeping some sort of faith with that - hence my idea of a cantrip...but one that the kindred might "forget" to use half the time and just attack with its weapon. The idea of this is to also keep the players guessing (a bit like a hell hound breath weapon...when will it recharge?), and leave the thanes and jarls to do the dark druidic mysteries ( a concept I like very much!)

Well firstly, you can "keep the players guessing" by having the Pine Kindred mix up its 1st level spell, which it also won't be able to spam like a cantrip so the DM only needs to worry about it once.

Rather than worry about them casting poison spray repeatedly or whatever, I'd rather give then a non-offensive cantrip like, say, druidcraft plus a single spell.

Upon reflection, I'm thinking they prefer nonlethal spells that'll help them capture victims to transform into more Pine Kindred and just use weapons when they want to kill.

More importantly, the presentation is wonky. If my understanding of the 5E monster design philosophy is correct, the Stat Block (the bit above the Description in this case) is supposed to contain everything needed to run the monster "straight off the card" barring spell descriptions and the like. A Spellcasting section should list the spells a creature has ready to cast, and the current version doesn't have that.

The Stat Block needn't mention alternative spells. The spells in its Spellcasting Entry are just an example and it's assumed that the monster might have different ones.

So something like:

Spellcasting The pine kindred is a 1st-level spellcaster that used Wisdom as its spellcasting ability (spell save DC ##; +# to hit with spell attacks). A pine kindred has the following spells prepared from the druid's spell list.

Cantrips (at will): druidcraft
1st level (1 slot): entangle

Some pine kindred know spells from outside the druid's spell list (see Dark Druidic Mysteries).​

The Dark Druidic Mysteries text ("DDM") belongs in the Description section. It is not necessary to run the monster "off the card" so doesn't belong in the Stat Block, putting the text about alternative spells there just clutters up the Special Traits section and makes it harder to read at a glance. Basically, the Stat Block contains the monster's mechanics, not flavour text or variations.

My idea was the standard Pine Kindred's Description paragraphs would also apply to the Thane and Jarl, who'd only require one or two additional description paragraphs on top of that.

Since all grades of Pine Kindred have druidic powers, I'm wrapping all the basic spellcasting fluff into together into a Dark Druidic Mysteries paragraph(s) one paragraph.

Incidentally, the DDM I posted was only a rough draft, I'm planning to flesh it out when we get to the Description part of this conversion.