5E: Converting Monsters from White Dwarf Magazine for Fifth Edition

[Cleon]

ok - int 0-3 and CR up to 4 total sounds fine. I initially looked at an elephant (CR 4) but am happy to keep to 3 but as I was typing saw last post

The original doesn't have a bite either FWIW...but looks like it should I concede/ CR 5 for critters might be on the high side

Okay, so we're going for the above with Intelligence 0 to 3 and a normal retinue of CR 4?

Do you favour Note #1 or #2?

I'm in favour of allowing Challenge 4 entries to the retinue if only so the chthon can have an elephant enforcer. I can visualize it now…

Chthon grins evilly, then chuckles "say hello to my little friend"…

…clump Clump CLUMP angry trumpeting TRAMPLE!!​

We could place a max CR on the individual creatures and forget about the maximum or drop it entirely, in which case we'd have to use Note #2 or a variant, since the CR will vary enormously. The original entry placed no limit on the nastiness of the Chthon's controlled creatures.

i.e.:

Control Animals and Plants. The chthon can telepathically control nonsapient flora and fauna. A single chthon can control up to twenty beasts and plants of Intelligence 0 to 3.​

​

Note (complex): The chthon's Challenge of # does not include its retinue of controlled beasts and plants. A typical chthon will be accompanied by up to a dozen creatures whose total Challenge Rating is 3, such as a single CR 3 ankylosaurus; one CR 2 giant constrictor snake plus eight CR 1/8 giant rats; or a dozen CR 1/4 wolves and boars. Some chthon's only have a few squirrels and foxes at their beck and call, a few have massive retinues such as a herd of elephants.​

 

[Cleon]

The original doesn't have a bite either FWIW

I know, but just look at the mouth in its illustration! It sure looks like it'd have a mean bite!

Maybe it can cast a plant growth once a day/week/month?

Yeah, that'd fit the original flavour text. The only objection I have is it's not that dynamic. It's just got scenery basically rather than something that involves Actions and saving throws and damage or disadvantage and all that other "fun" stuff.*

*Amount of fun on the receiving end is not guaranteed.

 

[Casimir Liber]

Agreed on the mean bite, but how to shoehorn an accurate damage, or just make it 2d8+5 (sorta large and "brutish" bite in keeping with its large size)

 

[Cleon]

Agreed on the mean bite, but how to shoehorn an accurate damage, or just make it 2d8+5 (sorta large and "brutish" bite in keeping with its large size)

That's just too low if you want to hit Challenge 6.

With its other numbers, the CR Calculator says we need a DPR between 15 and 26 for CR 6. A damage of 2d8 + 5 is DPR 14 and just inside Challenge 5.

That said, I'm fine making it CR 5 or even lower. It should makes the encounter budget easier to balance.

If the Chthon has a WAY higher Challenge than its retinue than the animals and plants fighting alongside it won't meaningfully contribute towards the battle, which is the reverse of what the original monster design was.

Hmm, in fact I'd suggest going further and lowering the Strength to 18 and making the bite +6 to hit and 13 (2d8+4) damage. That puts it at Challenge 4, making CR 1/4 wolves or CR 1/8 giant rats more meaningful allies.

 

[Casimir Liber]

Hmm, in fact I'd suggest going further and lowering the Strength to 18 and making the bite +6 to hit and 13 (2d8+4) damage. That puts it at Challenge 4, making CR 1/4 wolves or CR 1/8 giant rats more meaningful allies.

Agreed - I like this - makes for a lower level encounter where beasts are more substantial foes. Adjusted

 

[Cleon]

Agreed - I like this - makes for a lower level encounter where beasts are more substantial foes. Adjusted

Updated the Chthon with lower STR, CR, a Bite and revised version of Control Beasts and Plants.

I had to drop the Saving Throw Proficiency in Charisma to get it in Challenge 4. I forgot to set it to 3 STPs when doing the calculation before.

 

[Cleon]

I had to drop the Saving Throw Proficiency in Charisma to get it in Challenge 4. I forgot to set it to 3 STPs when doing the calculation before.

The alternative for CR 4 was cutting off a few HD and make it, say 10d10+50.

It depends how much you want the improved Charisma saves!

More hit points is a lot more useful I think.

Speaking of Charisma saves, are we making Control Beasts and Plants a Wisdom or Charisma saving throw? The precedent for charm, dominate and other enchantment-like effects is Wisdom.

Considering most animals and plants have crappy Charisma scores, they would be less likely to succeed if it were Charisma.

Offhand, I can't think of many 5E effects that have CHA saves, can you?

 

[Casimir Liber]

to me, logic suggests it should be a wisdom save like other charm/dominate spells as it's a battle of wills. agree on proportionally high hp

 

[Cleon]

to me, logic suggests it should be a wisdom save like other charm/dominate spells as it's a battle of wills. agree on proportionally high hp

I'll have to agree with you since that's what the precedence says. Although isn't Charisma a matter of will too? It's influencing other sapients' behaviour through the force of your personality, which is at least willpower adjacent.

Will have to squeeze a CHA save in some other monster then!

Updated the Chthon to make Control Beasts and Plants Wisdom save and slightly tweaked its wording to smooth out some clunky grammar.

Just remembered I wanted a line-of-sight requirement to the control. Otherwise the Chthon would bury itself under the ground where PCs wouldn't be able to reach it while its retinue do all the work.

That's need a revision to the wording along these lines:

The chthon may try to establish control over any beast or plant it can see within 60 feet which does not have a special link to another creature (it cannot control a ranger's animal companion or a plant animated by a druid's spell, for example). The target must succeed at a DC 12 Wisdom saving throw or fall under the chthon's control, which lasts until the chthon releases the controlled creature (a free action), the chthon or the affected creature is dead or unconscious, the two are separated by more than a mile, or the creature is affected by a power that breaks mind control. Controlled creatures always seek to remain within 1 mile of the chthon.​

​

If the chthon can see a controlled beast or plant within 120 feet, it can send telepathic orders the creature follows to the best of its natural ability. The chthon cannot force a controlled creature to do anything it could not do normally, such as suicidal or unnatural actions.​

We've still got the "protection from plants" power(s) to figure out.

 

[Casimir Liber]

ok, so maybe make it CHA then after all for a different setting. And make the save bonuses WIS and CHA (and drop INT) - agree with line of sight admendment

 

[Cleon]

ok, so maybe make it CHA then after all for a different setting. And make the save bonuses WIS and CHA (and drop INT)

I went for INT and WIS as it already had a decent Charisma bonus and that ability doesn't crop up as often for saving throws compared to Intelligence (illusions) and Wisdom (enchantments).

It made it fairly balanced over the mental stats. With INT and WIS proficiency the saves are INT +3, WIS +2, CHA +2, with WIS and CHA they'd be INT +1, WIS +2, CHA +4.

Hmm, how about changing tact and making it DEX and WIS for DEX –1, WIS +2?

agree with line of sight admendment

Updating the Chthon.

 

[Cleon]

ok, so maybe make it CHA then after all for a different setting. And make the save bonuses WIS and CHA (and drop INT) - agree with line of sight admendment

Come to think of it, does attempting to establish control over beasts and plants require an action of some kind? I forgot to discuss that.

The wording suggests it's a free and automatic risk, like the Petrifying Gaze of a Basilisk. I'm fine with that, but thought it best to check.

Oh, and I was going to add "A target that successfully saves is immune to this chthon's control attempts for the next 24 hours" but forgot.

Updating the Chthon.

 

[Casimir Liber]

Yes. I initially made it an action, but concede it makes it quite limiting in some way. What happens if the Chthon is caught off guard and it can only control one extra creature a turn etc. I think more playable as a trait.

Maybe just leaving as INT and WIS for saves then. making a DEX penalty is intriguing though.

We could have plant growth as a lair/lair action?

 

[Cleon]

Yes. I initially made it an action, but concede it makes it quite limiting in some way. What happens if the Chthon is caught off guard and it can only control one extra creature a turn etc. I think more playable as a trait.

Seems we're agreed.

Maybe just leaving as INT and WIS for saves then. making a DEX penalty is intriguing though.

It's got such a low Dexterity that even with its +2 proficiency bonus its DEX save is negative.

Come to think of it, with DEX save proficiency it has the same saving throw as an Earth Elemental, which feels very appropriate somehow.

Now I'm leaning towards DEX, WIS save proficiency over INT, WIS.

We could have plant growth as a lair/lair action?

I'd be more inclined to make it an Action that's, I don't know 1/Long Rest or 1/week or something.

More to the point, I fancied a more dynamic plant manipulation abilities that can create vegetative barriers or attacks on the fly.

Not necessarily damaging attacks, it could just cause branches/vines/roots to trip or entangle a target.

Nothing very powerful, but something that makes the battlefield more interesting.

 

[Casimir Liber]

ok DEX WIS it is. Fair points on the plant growth being more dynamic. Spike Growth?

 

[Cleon]

ok DEX WIS it is.

I'm a winner!

Updating the Chthon.

Fair points on the plant growth being more dynamic. Spike Growth?

I'd consider that kind of effect, but was going to put these options in Actions rather than giving this critter Innate Spellcasting.

The Chthon did not have spells in the original.

 

[Cleon]

I've decided to increase the maximum range of the Chthon's control.

A mile isn't a big enough area to sustain a decent sized retinue.

For example, a mountain lion's territory is usually in the range of 50 to 400 square miles while a wolf usually needs 20+ square miles. An elephant or Ankylosaurus presumably needs even more land to feed its multiton body.

A 1 mile radius probably wouldn't have enough prey in it to feed a single wolf let alone a pack of them. Once they start starving their instinct to survive will drive them to leave the area to find food since the Chthon's control cannot force unnatural behaviour.

With such a small area a Chthon would just have foxes and rabbits as its bodyguards unless it was lucky enough to live near an isolated waterhole or the like that'd act as a magnet for prey.

I'll up the range by a magnitude and make it 10 miles.

Updating the Chthon.

 

[Casimir Liber]

makes sense ecologically

 

[Cleon]

makes sense ecologically

Yes, D&D is well known for its scientific accuracy.

 

[Cleon]

Okay, getting back to the "Plant Protection" idea for the Chthon.

I'm thinking of giving it a couple of Action options, one that's active (i.e. an attack that entangles or trips) and one passive (i.e. a barrier that blocks travel or makes terrain difficult).