D&D 5E 5e EPIC MONSTER UPDATES

[mlh20116]

Hey @dave2008, I found your creations on this site and have been pouring over them for days now, they're amazing!

How can I go about supporting you and your work?
Also, are there purchasable PDF files or anything of that sort? I'd like to make sure whatever money I spend goes toward your work and not someone else.

 

[dave2008]

I'm so glad you like my work! There is a PDF of the work, but I never made anything that I thought was worthy to sell (yet). You can get to the PDF in the OP, you from my google drive here: 5e Epic Updates

However, I am in the process of update monsters to a new set of guidelines. For the more mundane monsters (up to CR 30) I have a this EnWorld thread: 5e Updates: Monstrous Compendium

However, I am in the process of making truly epic/immortal rules for PCs and Monsters/deities, etc. This is the successor to the epic updates and is called ASCENSION, The Codex of Exalted. I actually ran a successful kickstarter for this project, but the stress of actually making something worthy of publishing (IMO) was to much and I had to cancel the project. I still hope to eventually publish a book for immortal characters and monsters, and the links to the works in progress are here:

ASCENSION, The Codex of Exalted, Book 1: Players Guide
ASCENSION, The Codex of Exalted, Book 2: GM's Guide
ASCENSION, The Codex of Exalted, Book 3: Friends & Foes

Hopefully in a year or so I will have enough content to get something together that I can consider publishing.

 

[Still_An_Edgelord]

Personally I feel like the gods even lesser gods should be something so far outside the bounds of mortals that even a high level 20+ party can’t really do any significant harm to them, Demigods on the other hand I can see being extremely challenging. Now I’m not saying don’t make stats for the avatars of gods but rather that IMO gods should have stats that anyone looking at the sheet thinks “how in the 9 hells are we supposed to fight that” like a high level party of mortal adventures could take down demigods, demon lords, ArchDevils, and Arcangels with a heavy struggle but if you’re going to fight a lesser god then the party themselves should individually be Demigod level to hope to stand a chance. From there lesser gods need to work together to best an intermediate and intermediates work together to dethrone a greater, but a greater god itself should not be anywhere near feasible for a mortal party that doesn’t have Karsus leading the charge.

 

[Still_An_Edgelord]

Personally I feel like the gods even lesser gods should be something so far outside the bounds of mortals that even a high level 20+ party can’t really do any significant harm to them, Demigods on the other hand I can see being extremely challenging. Now I’m not saying don’t make stats for the avatars of gods but rather that IMO gods should have stats that anyone looking at the sheet thinks “how in the 9 hells are we supposed to fight that” like a high level party of mortal adventures could take down demigods, demon lords, ArchDevils, and Arcangels with a heavy struggle but if you’re going to fight a lesser god then the party themselves should individually be Demigod level to hope to stand a chance. From there lesser gods need to work together to best an intermediate and intermediates work together to dethrone a greater, but a greater god itself should not be anywhere near feasible for a mortal party that doesn’t have Karsus leading the charge.

Like for example I noticed the Tharizdun statblock had a save Dc: of around 36 or so however from homebrews me and my group create that’d be around the upper end of demigod whereas greater god Dc’s can end up around the DC:100’s give or take. But otherwise I am really loving some of these mechanics and all the work put into bringing this to 5e, it is definitely impressive and useful to have! Thanks!

 

[Still_An_Edgelord]

Hey Stalker0!

Well I probably used to think exactly the same. But the problem with 30 ish traits/attacks/legendary actions/lair actions is that:

1. Its off putting to some DMs to read such a stat-block
2. Even if they do read it, they probably won't remember most of it (either as set-up or in play)
3. The more powers you add the less focus the monster has
4. Likewise, more powers (especially more standardized powers) increases the likelihood that more of your high CR monsters share the same powers - making everything less unique - this is doubly true for Dragons
5. With this many powers you'll probably need multiple pages to explain it all. Meaning its not a stat-block at a glance any more - especially if there is page flipping.
6. Epic Play is already numerically the most complicated so anything you can do to alleviate the complexity rather than compound it will probably help.

Of course, all that said, epic gamers and DMs are probably more used to and more tolerable of higher complexity, but even then there is always the goal to not put off new epic level players and DMs.

That’s why you arrange the statblocks having 30+ abilities and actions in such an order that the flow of combat is kept in mind and easy to reference, having abilities chain from one to the next and build off one another for example helps keep the monsters dynamic and flexible but also focused enough to really pose a serious threat, plus all the information just flows so it makes referencing it rather smooth.

 

[dave2008]

Personally I feel like the gods even lesser gods should be something so far outside the bounds of mortals that even a high level 20+ party can’t really do any significant harm to them, Demigods on the other hand I can see being extremely challenging. Now I’m not saying don’t make stats for the avatars of gods but rather that IMO gods should have stats that anyone looking at the sheet thinks “how in the 9 hells are we supposed to fight that” like a high level party of mortal adventures could take down demigods, demon lords, ArchDevils, and Arcangels with a heavy struggle but if you’re going to fight a lesser god then the party themselves should individually be Demigod level to hope to stand a chance. From there lesser gods need to work together to best an intermediate and intermediates work together to dethrone a greater, but a greater god itself should not be anywhere near feasible for a mortal party that doesn’t have Karsus leading the charge.

In general I agree with your statements that is why I have started the new threads linked in the post above. These are very preliminary, but the point is to allow players to play demigods and gods and challenge cosmic powers. FYI, I don't think lvl 20 PCs should be able to take on Demolords, let alone greater gods.

ASCENSION, The Codex of Exalted, Book 1: Players Guide
ASCENSION, The Codex of Exalted, Book 2: GM's Guide
ASCENSION, The Codex of Exalted, Book 3: Friends & Foes

 

[dave2008]

Like for example I noticed the Tharizdun statblock had a save Dc: of around 36 or so however from homebrews me and my group create that’d be around the upper end of demigod whereas greater god Dc’s can end up around the DC:100’s give or take. But otherwise I am really loving some of these mechanics and all the work put into bringing this to 5e, it is definitely impressive and useful to have! Thanks!

These are old stat blocks and mostly would be equivalent to avatars in the 2nd drafts. No I don't have any interest in escalating DCs as high as you suggest. Instead I am using "exalted advantage" to give deities and the like a numerical advantage (and some static bonus too)

ASCENSION, The Codex of Exalted, Book 1: Players Guide
ASCENSION, The Codex of Exalted, Book 2: GM's Guide
ASCENSION, The Codex of Exalted, Book 3: Friends & Foes

 

[Upper_Krust]

Personally I feel like the gods even lesser gods should be something so far outside the bounds of mortals that even a high level 20+ party can’t really do any significant harm to them, Demigods on the other hand I can see being extremely challenging.

I think when most gamers see individual stats for demon lords, deities and the like they think "We can take him!". But individual deities should never be encountered as lone opponents - especially in their 'back yard'.

I would consider Orcus a Lesser deity at CR 26 (even though his stat block is very weak IMHO ). But after fighting through hordes of Demons and Undead, the players should have to face Orcus, plus attendants akin to a Dracolich, Molydeus, Balor and Lich.

Now I’m not saying don’t make stats for the avatars of gods but rather that IMO gods should have stats that anyone looking at the sheet thinks “how in the 9 hells are we supposed to fight that” like a high level party of mortal adventures could take down demigods, demon lords, ArchDevils, and Arcangels with a heavy struggle but if you’re going to fight a lesser god then the party themselves should individually be Demigod level to hope to stand a chance. From there lesser gods need to work together to best an intermediate and intermediates work together to dethrone a greater, but a greater god itself should not be anywhere near feasible for a mortal party that doesn’t have Karsus leading the charge.

I sort of agree with you that even a Level 20 party should not be taking down one of the more powerful gods unless they are on the path to divinity themselves.

 

[Upper_Krust]

That’s why you arrange the statblocks having 30+ abilities and actions in such an order that the flow of combat is kept in mind and easy to reference, having abilities chain from one to the next and build off one another for example helps keep the monsters dynamic and flexible but also focused enough to really pose a serious threat, plus all the information just flows so it makes referencing it rather smooth.

No monster should have 30+ abilities* (IMHO ), I just think there is a tipping point of 'too many working parts' and while its difficult to know what that tipping point is (and its probably different for each individual DM) for me if the stat block takes up more than a page I think its too much.

*Discounting individual spells/spell-like abilities.

 

[S'mon]

There is plenty of myth and fiction where mortals fight greater gods and don't get immediately squished - Elric v Xiombarg, Diomedes vs Ares, Jacob vs Jehovah are some that come to mind. I think the main thing though is that stats should serve a purpose - if gods are not there to be fought, don't stat them. If you do stat them, make the stats useable by a moderately competent GM.

My own approach tends to be that mortals can fight & potentially beat the physical manifestation of a god, but not permanently destroy it - Tiamat & Orcus often get killed, but always reform eventually. Demigods being part mortal can be permanently killed. If I were doing a Norse myth game then the gods being part mortal would also be killable.

 

[Still_An_Edgelord]

These are old stat blocks and mostly would be equivalent to avatars in the 2nd drafts. No I don't have any interest in escalating DCs as high as you suggest. Instead I am using "exalted advantage" to give deities and the like a numerical advantage (and some static bonus too)

ASCENSION, The Codex of Exalted, Book 1: Players Guide
ASCENSION, The Codex of Exalted, Book 2: GM's Guide
ASCENSION, The Codex of Exalted, Book 3: Friends & Foes

Why not both exalted advantage and absurdly high stats to really drive home the power difference?

 

[dave2008]

Why not both exalted advantage and absurdly high stats to really drive home the power difference?

Because I don't like absurdly high stats. That was something I didn't like about 3e or 4e. Instead I prefer that stats increase in "power" exponentially. You can see a version of my damage by stat table here: Exalted Stats by CR

Basically I prefer damage scale than bonuses to hit. I prefer changing the probability of a hit than changing the range. Finally, I have a lot of things to emphasize the power different that are more interesting to me than stats.

 

[Ideamaster_1]

Hey! I love this document and would use it for any of the characters listed, but I noticed there are still no giants and was wondering if you are still planning on doing that.

 

[dave2008]

Hey! I love this document and would use it for any of the characters listed, but I noticed there are still no giants and was wondering if you are still planning on doing that.

I do still plan on doing the giants (and actually have a draft of Annam), but I have moved all of my immortal/deity/exalted plans over to:

ASCENSION, The Codex of Exalted, Book 1: Player's Guide
ASCENSION, The Codex of Exalted, Book 2: GM's Guide
ASCENSION, The Codex of Exalted, Book 3: Friends & Foes

It will take me more than a year, but I will be moving everything over to that format. I should start converting the epic monsters (including deities) later this year or the first of next year.

 

[IloveD&D]

Can you create like Overgods stats with the Epic Monsters system that you created?

 

[dave2008]

Can you create like Overgods stats with the Epic Monsters system that you created?

Yes. Right now I have Ao and Yahweh as my only planned Overgods. There are 8 - 12 total, but I don'r currently have specific plans to stat the rest of them. That could change though.

 

[IloveD&D]

Like for example I noticed the Tharizdun statblock had a save Dc: of around 36 or so however from homebrews me and my group create that’d be around the upper end of demigod whereas greater god Dc’s can end up around the DC:100’s give or take. But otherwise I am really loving some of these mechanics and all the work put into bringing this to 5e, it is definitely impressive and useful to have! Thanks!

Hello I read that you created an homebrew system for gods or such monsters, and from what i read they are really powerful, would you be inclined to share the homebrew? Soon I will master a One shot with really High level overpowered players characters and this kind of monsters would really help.

 

[IloveD&D]

Yes. Right now I have Ao and Yahweh as my only planned Overgods. There are 8 - 12 total, but I don'r currently have specific plans to stat the rest of them. That could change though.

Thank you for the answer and I have another question, have ever read the Beyond CR 30 Monster manual from Total party killer on DM's Guild? If so would you help me ti create some incredible monsters with that system?
I would like to create these Monsters for an Epic One shot that Is set after a long Epic campaing and now with divine Powers donated from the gods and a total of 50 epic character level per PC it's hard to challenge them.
Thanks in advance for the answer.

 

[dave2008]

Hello I read that you created an homebrew system for gods or such monsters, and from what i read they are really powerful, would you be inclined to share the homebrew? Soon I will master a One shot with really High level overpowered players characters and this kind of monsters would really help.

All the monsters I posed in this thread are compiled in a PDF which is linked to in the OP (5e Epic Monster Updates). However, I consider those all "First Drafts." The 2nd drafts and Immortal character rules are be developed in a different thread(s):

ASCENSION, The Codex of Exalted, Book 1: Player's Guide
ASCENSION, The Codex of Exalted, Book 2: GM's Guide
ASCENSION, The Codex of Exalted, Book 3: Friends & Foes

These have been on hold for a while, but I am working on them again and plan to have the player rules mostly complete by the end of the year for play testing. That will include updating some of the monsters in this thread and some additional gods. I hope to convert the rest of the epic monsters by the end of next year.

 

[dave2008]

Thank you for the answer and I have another question, have ever read the Beyond CR 30 Monster manual from Total party killer on DM's Guild? If so would you help me ti create some incredible monsters with that system?
I would like to create these Monsters for an Epic One shot that Is set after a long Epic campaing and now with divine Powers donated from the gods and a total of 50 epic character level per PC it's hard to challenge them.
Thanks in advance for the answer.

I am familiar with Total Party Kill and have some of their products, but I am not sure if I have that one. I am on vacation, but I can look to see if I have that book when I get back.

Depending on the time required I may be able to help you. I can't guarantee anything though. I will be very busy until at least the end of the year.