D&D 5E 5e Fighter, Do You Enjoy Playiing It?

Have you enjoyed playing the fighter?


Actually, it's not. We have dozens of examples of soldiers suffering grievous wounds and still able to function at full combat functionality. And what are PCs, but representative of these rare men and women who are exceptional? You or I might not be able to function fully after taking a bullet wound, but we're not that rare % of people that PCs are supposed to represent either.

Kinda sorta.

We have lots of these stories because these stories are not the norm. Selection bias and all that. For every guy that pushes on after being wounded, you have a number (and I don't know that number) of wounded soldiers that stop fighting. Sure, that soldier might (ahem) soldier on after being wounded. How about doing that in every single battle he fights in? How many soldiers have a purple heart for every single engagement they participated in?

Because that's what you're expecting from a PC. Being dropped down to single digit HP isn't exactly rare for a fighter PC. Might not be every fight, but, it's certainly more than once in the lifetime of the character.

Plus, since HP don't represent what kind of wound a PC takes, we have no idea how wounded the PC is, ever. Never a broken bone from a mace hit, never concussed from a blow to the head, eyes never gouged out by a dagger, that kind of thing. It's all pretty abstract.

So, if we agree that HP are abstractions, does that mean there would be less resistance to the idea of damage on a miss now?

*runs and hides*
 

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It's hard to get 80% approval for something on an internet poll like this, where negative voices tend to be louder than positive ones. So, I'd say this poll does help dispel the notion that there is a problem with the 5e fighter in general.

I think that's fair, as far as it goes. There is no real problem with the fighter as written. In the thread that spawned this one though, it wasn't that people didn't like the existing fighter per se, but rather they wanted a fighter with more dials and switches.

Fighter is good does not equate to fighter is good enough for everyone.
 

I think that's fair, as far as it goes. There is no real problem with the fighter as written. In the thread that spawned this one though, it wasn't that people didn't like the existing fighter per se, but rather they wanted a fighter with more dials and switches.

Fighter is good does not equate to fighter is good enough for everyone.

Nothing is good enough for everyone.
 

Hussar said:
So, if we agree that HP are abstractions, does that mean there would be less resistance to the idea of damage on a miss now?

I'm a little bothered by DoaM, but it doesn't have to do with what HP represents for me (I am pretty meaty, but also cool with wahoo) - it's a gameplay thing. When I miss, that feeling that I've wasted my effort and have not contributed is something that I want. It has to do with threat and risk, I should want to have that chance to not contribute, to fizzle. To get rid of that chance, I want to have to pay some cost (which is how magic gets away with it - they pay a pretty high cost to get "half damage on a successful save").

Like, if a 5e fighter wanted to use their Action Surge (forex) to deal half damage on a miss, I'd be generally cool with that.

Hussar said:
I think that's fair, as far as it goes. There is no real problem with the fighter as written. In the thread that spawned this one though, it wasn't that people didn't like the existing fighter per se, but rather they wanted a fighter with more dials and switches.

A lot of folks used to 3e and 4e do miss the granular fiddly bits that 5e shoved overboard in the interest of a broader, more accessible game. Thankfully, it's not hard to complexify the game. It is hard if you want that complexity to be everyone's default.
 
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I'm a little bothered by DoaM, but it doesn't have to do with what HP represents for me (I am pretty meaty, but also cool with wahoo) - it's a gameplay thing. When I miss, that feeling that I've wasted my effort and have not contributed is something that I want. It has to do with threat and risk, I should want to have that chance to not contribute, to fizzle. To get rid of that chance, I want to have to pay some cost (which is how magic gets away with it - they pay a pretty high cost to get "half damage on a successful save").

Like, if a 5e fighter wanted to use their Action Surge (forex) to deal half damage on a miss, I'd be generally cool with that.

What cost, exactly, do magic-users pay for this? Unless you mean the spell itself, which was a cost to begin with...that is, casting the spell at all requires the resource in the first place. If that counts, why doesn't the Fighter's Action Surge let her deal damage with every attack made using it? (Since I doubt you'd be okay with that, given the way you phrased the cost.)

A lot of folks used to 3e and 4e do miss the granular fiddly bits that 5e shoved overboard in the interest of a broader, more accessible game. Thankfully, it's not hard to complexify the game. It is hard if you want that complexity to be everyone's default.

Given the conversations I've seen from a number of people--not everyone by a long shot, but a very substantial number nonetheless--who feel the "all monsters are just bags of HP" situation really does constrain their ability to play the game the way they wish to...

Well, let's just say that "it's not hard to complexify the game" is not nearly the truism you'd like it to be. I'm not saying it's false, but enough people question it that I couldn't accept it as self-evident even if I wanted to.
 

What cost, exactly, do magic-users pay for this? Unless you mean the spell itself, which was a cost to begin with...that is, casting the spell at all requires the resource in the first place. If that counts, why doesn't the Fighter's Action Surge let her deal damage with every attack made using it? (Since I doubt you'd be okay with that, given the way you phrased the cost.)

Yes, the major cost is the spell slot. I don't know that you're reading my post, because the line afterwards is

Me said:
Like, if a 5e fighter wanted to use their Action Surge (forex) to deal half damage on a miss, I'd be generally cool with that.

The reason it DOESN'T is likely because for your Mythical Typical Player, Action Surge is probably more fun - another dice to roll, another chance to crit, a more flexible action to use. There's less assurance there, but there's more dyanmism, more moving parts, more things to interact with, a bigger chance to grab the table spotlight and let everyone else go "woah."

But like I said, mechanically - even with HP-as-mostly-meat - I'd have zero issues with a player who asked, "Can I spend my use of Action Surge to just deal half damage from this attack, even though I missed?" Heck, that might be on the weak side - I might say "You know what? If you spend action surge, we can just say you hit." (Even that doesn't carry quite the high-level oomph that a big AS does, so I'd probably think it was kind of a bad trade - maybe worth it from a confidence/loss aversion/ "THIS COULD BE THE LAST HIT AND THE BREATH WEAPON IS RECHARGED" standpoint, though.)

I'd typically narrate it as not-actually-a-miss, but as actually grabbing a small piece of them despite almost missing. That is, it wouldn't just be battering and exhausting and tiring and plot-armor-ing in my HP-is-mostly-meat world, it would actually be a hit, just not a very strong one.

I can get why other tables would from a more "sim-y" perspective based on what attack rolls vs. saving throws represent in the world. I wonder if that group would be cool with damage-on-a-miss if the fighter had some ability that was like "every creature within 5 ft. takes damage as if they had been hit with your weapon. A successful Dexterity save halves the damage." (It's a little Legend of Zelda whirlwind attack, perhaps).

But point being: DoaM futzes with more than just your HP narration.

Given the conversations I've seen from a number of people--not everyone by a long shot, but a very substantial number nonetheless--who feel the "all monsters are just bags of HP" situation really does constrain their ability to play the game the way they wish to...

Well, let's just say that "it's not hard to complexify the game" is not nearly the truism you'd like it to be. I'm not saying it's false, but enough people question it that I couldn't accept it as self-evident even if I wanted to.

If people think monsters are too simple, it's not hard to complexify them - add some spells, give them unique attacks, use action-activated terrain, toss in a mix, use lair actions, etc., etc., etc.

Just because folks think a thing is too simple doesn't mean it's hard to make it more fiddly.

And the simplicity - the straightforward monster mechanics or the easy-to-learn Action Surge mechanics - are appealing to folks who have never hefted a d20 before. One of the big wins of 5e from my casual/newbie group is that it is SIMPLER, that there are FEWER options - they find this leads to more role playing and less fiddling about with things, and more dynamic, fluid gameplay. And this is a group that started with 4e, so it's not like their view is exactly driven by nostalgia bias. They just aren't tactical, optimization-oriented, fiddly players who spend their weekends posting on D&D message boards like I am. ;)
 
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A lot of folks used to 3e and 4e do miss the granular fiddly bits that 5e shoved overboard in the interest of a broader, more accessible game. Thankfully, it's not hard to complexify the game. It is hard if you want that complexity to be everyone's default.
5e was re-focused on it's core audience. The sacrifices it has made relative to choice-rich/system-mastery-rewarding 3.x and clear/balanced 4e are not to broaden it's appeal or to make it more accessible to new gamers, but to make it more familiar and evoke the classic feel of the game ("more accessible" to established D&Ders). We love 5e, because it's for /us/, the serious, long-time fans of the game who remember the classic game from the height of its popularity.


If people think monsters are too simple, it's not hard to complexify them - add some spells, give them unique attacks, use action-activated terrain, toss in a mix, use lair actions, etc., etc., etc.

Just because folks think a thing is too simple doesn't mean it's hard to make it more fiddly.
It's easier to hand-wave complexity you find excessive, than to add complexity without unintended (negative) effects.

Especially if the hand-waving is mostly one-off, and rule-of-cool.


Not that I think anyone actually wants complexity for it's own sake, rather, they want more choices - meaningful, viable, worthwhile choices, not chaff.
 

5e PHB said:
Hit points represent a combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck. Creatures with more hit points are more difficult to kill. Those with fewer hit points are more fragile. A creature’s current hit points (usually just called hit points) can be any number from the creature’s hit point maximum down to 0. This number changes frequently as a creature takes damage or receives healing. Whenever a creature takes damage, that damage is subtracted from its hit points. The loss of hit points has no effect on a creature’s capabilities until the creature drops to 0 hit points.

To me, this means that while you fight and get hit, you basically shrug it off and keep going, until you can't anymore. This makes sense to me, (for the most part) but what doesnt is the cabaility to be pushed beyond what you can handle (0 hp), get a teeny bit of magical healing, and be fully ready to go instantly. This is part of why, in our games, when you go to 0 hp then come back, we apply a level of exhaustion. Once you get 5 levels, you can't come back from 0 except by the full duration unconsciousness thing, even if the exhaustion is removed with magic earlier.
 

5e was re-focused on it's core audience. The sacrifices it has made relative to choice-rich/system-mastery-rewarding 3.x and clear/balanced 4e are not to broaden it's appeal or to make it more accessible to new gamers, but to make it more familiar and evoke the classic feel of the game ("more accessible" to established D&Ders). We love 5e, because it's for /us/, the serious, long-time fans of the game who remember the classic game from the height of its popularity.

My experience with newbies suggests this isn't the whole story. My group that started with 4e last year likes 5e more, and they don't have any baggage associated with the "classic feel." They do like the fact that they don't have six different complex and detailed powers staring them in the face every turn with walls of jargon embedded in them.

A reduction in options makes 5e more accessible to them.

I am relatively confident that they're not the exception to the rule - 5e has made an effort to lower the barrier to entry, and this means lowering the things one must manage (and so lowering the option quantity).

It's easier to hand-wave complexity you find excessive, than to add complexity without unintended (negative) effects.

Especially if the hand-waving is mostly one-off, and rule-of-cool.

Disagree. To hand-wave complexity, you need to have a high degree of system mastery - you have to know what the complexity accomplishes, so that you don't lose a meaningful game element when you hand-wave it. You already have to understand the complexity. To add complexity to a robust system requires comparatively low system mastery. Robust is the keyword there: that is the trait that makes it hard to break. A system that seeks out precise balance and carefully contextualized options is not robust, even if there are a few of them.

Not that I think anyone actually wants complexity for it's own sake, rather, they want more choices - meaningful, viable, worthwhile choices, not chaff.

More choices is always more chaff for someone.
 

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