D&D 5E 5e/Next Cosmology

[Alzrius]

Just to show folks that it takes all types, I kind of like the way it is a grab-bag of real world mythologies. I like the idea that Zeus and Thor and Lei Gong and Chaac all might get together once in a while and throw a Thunder God Get-Together, or that Set and Hades pal around with each other once in a while.

Testify!

I've always liked the idea of pantheons interacting with each other. To me, keeping them separate seemed to go hand-in-hand with keeping them (trapped) in their real-world mythological niches, which always struck me as being incredibly boring. I can go re-read Bullfinch if I want that; an RPG should, to my mind, mix things up.

 

[Li Shenron]

The editorial this month mentions their intentions with the cosmology of D&D. Like many other things they claim they'll have "something for everyone".

The editorial says that they will not suggest a default cosmology but instead provide a toolbox, which basically mean they'll mention/describe a series of planes with guidlines for connecting them, and let the DM decide what exists in her campaign setting and what not.

Which in my book is not only the best but also the only way they can really give "something for everyone".

 

[Minigiant]

Ah yesss, planar travel with sandwiches

5
5 Gold
5 Gold Plane Shift

The PLANAR SUBWAY runs on the principle that every plane has one or more train stations on a massive rail system. Every rail line is a planar aspect and the connections between planes are the the rail lines they share transfers to.

"This is AVERNUS
Transfer to the Lawful, Fire, and Outer trains.
This is a Uptown Local Evil train.
The Next stop is DIS.
BING BONG"

 

[Tovec]

Yeah, that "D&D is not D&D without the Great Wheel" line is kinda bad. It even seems to flatly go against the tone of "change the cosmology to match what you want!" tone they're trying to go for in the article. How did that kind of thing slip through an editor? Do they edit these articles?

In the same way that "D&D is not D&D without Elves, Drow and Orcs" line is kinda bad? It doesn't do away with "[you can] change the cosmology to match what you want!" or even you can change the races to match what you want. D&D needs a baseline, for many years the great wheel was that baseline. For many D&D isn't D&D without it. They build the great wheel and anyone or everyone can discount it and make their own thing, just like what they can do with elves, drow and orcs. That doesn't mean they shouldn't make elves, drow and orcs. It has nothing to do about putting down 4e or saying the 4e planes are bad, it is about realizing and addressing that not everyone was on board with the 4e design.

I certainly preferred the elemental chaos and astral sea over the excessively over-designed Great Wheel and Inner Planes, but I honestly would like to see something even more new. Or rather, I really would like to see them abandon the idea of a core planar cosmology entirely.

First, I'm glad you liked the elemental chaos and astral sea, I can understand you even liking it over the well defined great wheel (and inner planes). That doesn't mean that they can't keep it or a version of it. I took aspects of the 4e cosmology for my game and integrated them with a VERY 3e cosmology base. It works great.

Second, I would want to see them evolve and advance the core cosmology instead of abandoning it again in favour of something completely new. They tried tearing down the cosmology and rebuilding it with similar (almost identical) pieces in 4e and that didn't work for many. I would have rathered something completely new but it seems unlikely as they probably want to keep nine hells and infinite (or 666) abyss layers. So, again, evolve and advance not rewrite from scratch.

Third, I do like the idea of incorporating cosmology into the world. I think it works GREAT for a lot of mythical (real world myths) stories. Mount olympus is supposed to be in greece (iirc) afterall. A lot of what we would consider planar hopping is basically just them going to obscure or remote areas of the world. I think that a lot of these aspects DO NOT work in a lot of newer stories and certainly don't work well in games where you ARE going to be leaving your little plane behind.

Fourth, D&D has always had a history of mixing up their cosmologies as it is. Eberron and Faerun both had different cosmologies than the default greyhawk one, and different again from spelljammer. So I don't see why that is so hard. I think the flaw for any discussion about cosmologies comes up when you try to talk about them in a vacuum without knowing the core world that they relate to. For example, I've never had any use for the inner elemental planes but I know countless games which have used them to great effect. Hell a notable NPC in my game has a cubic gate which links directly to the elemental plane of water, but it has never really come up.

Take everything I've said with a grain of salt, I just wanted to give my thoughts on the subject.

 

[Lanefan]

Just to show folks that it takes all types, I kind of like the way it is a grab-bag of real world mythologies. I like the idea that Zeus and Thor and Lei Gong and Chaac all might get together once in a while and throw a Thunder God Get-Together, or that Set and Hades pal around with each other once in a while. To me, part of the D&D experience is a mythological grab-bag anyway, what with the Kraken and the Chimera and the Coutl and Asmodeus all around.

Seeing as my worlds have always had those various cultures rubbing shoulders with (or throwing spears at) each other, it only makes sense their deities can bash around together as well.

That said, I re-did the deities system a long time ago such that there are only 21 actual divine beings, and most "deities" are merely culturally-appropriate aspects of one of those.

As for planes, I don't at all mind there being essentially an infinite number of them - if you need a plane for something, just chuck it in. Feywild or equivalent? No problem. Shadowfell or similar? Step this way. Primordial Plane of Toothbrushes? I want some of whatever you're having.

It's had Arborea since 2e as the location of eladrin (fey-like celestials), elf gods and goddesses, and Seelie Court and suchlikeas. In my PS4e game, Feywild = Arborea.

This is, of course, another thing: it's pretty easy to just re-name or re-skin pre-existing planes to suit what you want. Any of a bunch of the planes of Hell or the Abyss, for example, could become Shadowfell; the Plane of Shadow could also.

The PLANAR SUBWAY runs on the principle that every plane has one or more train stations on a massive rail system. Every rail line is a planar aspect and the connections between planes are the the rail lines they share transfers to.

[MENTION=63508]Minigiant[/MENTION] It doesn't have rails or trains but what you are looking for already exists: the Infinite Stairway, out of the 2e adventure module "For Duty and Deity". (which I think took it from some earlier product, but FD&D is the first place I saw it)

Lanefan

 

[Kaodi]

Good to know the proper Eberron cosmology should be back, if they republish the setting again.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I was never a big fan of the Great Wheel as it seemed a heavy-handed attempt to justify alignment,s which I was never a fan of. The elemental was better, but still a pretty simple view of things.

My big question always was, how did this come to be? And why.

Also, how the prime material planes fit into all of that was always odd. It almost seemed like they were an add-on or a slideshow for those living in the outer planes, which, on reflection, might be true enough.

I liked 4E's cosmology as it seemed to have a beginning and an end, an d the steps largely made sense.

I do not think it was ever fleshed out enough in books (Maybe that was something the Epic DMG was going to cover.)

I am glad to see them thinking aoubt this, but I would not support a simple return to the 3E cosmology.

 

[Alzrius]

Fourth, D&D has always had a history of mixing up their cosmologies as it is. Eberron and Faerun both had different cosmologies than the default greyhawk one, and different again from spelljammer.

Minor points here, but Ed Greenwood originally wrote the Forgotten Realms' cosmology using the Great Wheel (though it wasn't called that back then), AKA the Greyhawk cosmology.

Likewise, the Eberron and new FR cosmologies aren't different "again" from the Spelljammer cosmology, as that one fits seamlessly with the Great Wheel.

 

[Shemeska]

YES!!!111!!!!!1

Whoever made this design decision, you are awesome and I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

And *GLEE* they used Julie Dillon's illustration from an article I wrote in Dragon 353 (Multiple Dementia). Cool!

*cough*

That said, having gotten that out of my system, this is pretty damn cool news and it gets my attention back to 5e. Mind you,I'm not at all averse to cosmologies different from the Great Wheel, but the Great Wheel has a special place in my heart since its where I cut my teeth when getting into the game, and it continues to inspire me now.

And if I do any 5e work, it'll be awesome being able to potentially write about something from the Great Wheel within its native cosmology.

I don't mind options in what cosmologies are presented, but something was lost when they briefly moved away from the Great Wheel and its body of lore that was IMO one of the game's legacies to be cherished. The approach that Chris is advocating is a really good way to move forward and get back in touch with the game's roots and again IMO some of its best aspects from its entire span.

 

[Shemeska]

One of the best takes on the "Great Wheel+" that I've ever seen was in a third-party product that kept the existing structure, but posited that alongside the "Inner" and "Outer" planes were the newly-discovered "Preternatural Planes."

The Preternatural Planes (which included the so-called "Transitive Planes" such as the Shadow Plane and the Astral, etc.) included a number of planes that the Great Wheel had ignored before now, such as the Faerie Plane, the Plane of Dreams, Purgatory, etc.

It was one of the best ideas for the Great Wheel since Planescape. It'd be great to see WotC take a cue from this.

It's a good approach in that it provides some options that weren't as obviously present in something like a classical Planescape campaign. 4e had its Feywild and Shadow-Shadow-Bo-Badow planes as reflections of the material world, and likewise Pathfinder has its own First World of the fey and the Shadow plane as unearthly and dim reflections of the Material Plane respectively.