D&D 5E 5e/Next Cosmology

[Raith5]

I'm a big fan of the incorporating cosmology into the world approach myself. It is much more fun for gods and demons to inhabit the world itself, rather than be isolated off in weird alternate realms of existence that can only be accessed by certain high-level spells. If nothing else, I prefer planes that overlay over the physical world (like the Feywild or Shadowfell) over infinitely-sized theme worlds like most Outer Planes tend to be.

Certainly, each setting really should have its own cosmology. I think it was a big mistake of older versions of the game to even establish a singular cosmology. The Realms, Eberron, Dark Sun, and others really need their own cosmology, if they even need a cosmology at all.

I agree with the idea of richly building cosmology into the world and each world having its own cosmology. I also dislike retconning of worlds to fit cosmology, gods or races. But there is a tension between building cosmology into the world and having different worlds in terms of the rule books. The question is what makes it into the core rules - is it going to be a list of options, a broad assumption, a assumption based on the history of the D&D game or no assumption.

 

[arscott]

I don't remember the Feywild and the Shadowfell showing up in Dark Sun? They actually fit Eberron fairly well with the OTT pulp feel of some of it and the kitchen sink feel of other parts.

"The Lands Beyond the Wind", 4e Dark Sun's version of the feywild, was probably the single coolest thing that the 4e version did.

It combined the ideas of the feywild being a reflection of the natural world and Defiling as destroying the natural world to give us a plane that's being torn to shreds. What's left of it can fit in a few city blocks -- and the eladrin that live there are as happy about that as you expect.

They called the shadowfell "the gray" per the later 2e supplements. But they didn't really incorporate the cosmological weirdness of the 2e version. There was, however, a call-out to the Ravenloft domain of Kalidma, describing the city as having transported to the shadowfell after an undescribed catastrophe.

 

[Zaukrie]

The editorial basically says they are going to give us options. It seems pretty clear to me that they will support pretty much whatever you have from previous editions. But to sell me another manual of the planes, they better have some new stuff.

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[Shemeska]

I agree with the idea of richly building cosmology into the world and each world having its own cosmology. I also dislike retconning of worlds to fit cosmology, gods or races. But there is a tension between building cosmology into the world and having different worlds in terms of the rule books. The question is what makes it into the core rules - is it going to be a list of options, a broad assumption, a assumption based on the history of the D&D game or no assumption.

It'll be interesting to see what they do with the cosmology used for FR in 5e. It started out with the Great Wheel in 1e and 2e, was retconned into its own cosmology in 3e (which was largely the Great Wheel with the names filed off), and then 4e saw it retconned again into using the default 4e cosmology.

Ideally from my perspective they'll bring it back into the Great Wheel since the bulk of the material written for FR was set within that cosmology, but it also really depends on how the handle the continuity issues introduced by 4e (and to a much lesser extent 3e).

Mostly I'd just want to see Sigil and the Blood War within the Great Wheel, Ravenloft as a hungry, roaming ethereal demiplane, and not have to worry about altering them to fit another cosmology.

 

[Stormonu]

There's no Great Wheel, Berks - it's all been a sham by the Guvner's who've been giving the laugh to the Clueless fer years.

See, tha' Guvner's been plugging holes in the 'verse ever since they helped the Lady take her little seat of power at the center of it All. Sigil's the linchpin that's been keeping the 'verse from expanding outta control - all ta tha Lady's benefit.

But then some berk stumbled on the Key, an' got locked in the Gatehouse as some bloomin' barmy to keep it all dark. Somehow, though, that unnamed berk figured it out an' unlocked the Door, in the process blowin' part of Sigil across tha' known planes.

With the old doors opened, chaos ensued. And I don't just mean the Xaosicts threw a party - though they did that too.

A forgotten maelstrom opened up in the heart o' tha elemental planes, pulling a corner of each into a swirling maisma of sifting elemental material - the Elemental Chaos they call it now.

Then the sea opened wide on the Astral. Where once tha' outer planes were neat an' orderly, nice an' locked like houses set on a row, they now bounce through an' Astral ocean whose depths aren't even known to the Powers. And many hidden realms - realms locked down by the closing of the Door - places like the Realm of Madness, now brain-addled berks can sail to their cursed shores or bring their horrors ta the other realms that've been safe from them for untold generations.

The opening of the Door also opened portals and such to the Sideways realms - the old worlds the Feywild has thrown its old doors open and the chained down Plane of Shadow has burst its shackles to rise back up as a full-on dark mirror of the Prime known as the Shadowfell. Then there's the Hallow World, the world inside the Prime's world itself. The old sun there has roared back to life and the dying civilizations are again on the rise.

N' with the return o' those forgotten realms, the Powers that had been locked out of 'em and cast of fer dead in the Astral all went home an' declared themselves rulers - and the fight there's been going on fer some time now.

An' in all this, the Ethereal - she just winked out of existence. No one knows where she's gone or what 'appened to 'er. Tha' ghosts that used to haunt it 'ave all moved on to the Shadowfell and the rest seem to 'ave been dropped into the Astral, all acting like there never was an Ethereal at all.

As for the clueless primes? They've gone plum barmy because their old maps of the cogs and wheels of the planes don't tell them anything anymore 'cause the borders 'ave all changed like after some Prime war.

An' then there's the Modrons. Word is, they ain't happy tha' doors been open - if you believe the chant, the Modrons had their hand in locking those doors down ages ago. If you believe those rattling their bone-boxes, there's another March on the way to get as many of those doors shut as possible. But without the Key, even they can't close 'em all.

 

[The Little Raven]

So, the guy who was listed as the D&D Story Design and Development Manager for 4e, which would make him the head of the team that ditched the Great Wheel, now tells us "all options are equal" and "it's not D&D without the Great Wheel" in the same breath?

Charming.

 

[The Little Raven]

It'll be interesting to see what they do with the cosmology used for FR in 5e. It started out with the Great Wheel in 1e and 2e, was retconned into its own cosmology in 3e (which was largely the Great Wheel with the names filed off), and then 4e saw it retconned again into using the default 4e cosmology.

Two nitpicks.

The first is the incorrect use of retcon. The didn't magically change the timeline to have the cosmology always been that way (unlike 3e and it's "The Simbul was always a sorcerer, you just never noticed." explanations). The continuity was not retroactively changed, therefore it, by definition, cannot be a retcon. It's metaplot.

The second is that the 4e Cosmology was the new FR cosmology before 4e even started development.

As it happens, the Elemental Chaos did not originate in the design of the core game, but as part of the work of the new FORGOTTEN REALMS setting “brain trust” that included Phil Athans, Rich Baker, and me. Even before the most basic D&D 4th Edition rules had been hammered out, we needed to project the future timeline of the Realms so that novel authors could get to work ahead of the edition change. We were charged with devising a cosmology that would work both for core D&D and Faerûn. The idea of two separate planar structures wasn’t serving the needs of the overall D&D experience. Thus, the essential structure of our “Future of Faerûn” project became the 4th Edition cosmology. This plane was originally called the Primordial Chaos, but after additional development incorporating good new ideas, this restless realm of continual creation became the Elemental Chaos.

 

[Alzrius]

The first is the incorrect use of retcon. The didn't magically change the timeline to have the cosmology always been that way (unlike 3e and it's "The Simbul was always a sorcerer, you just never noticed." explanations). The continuity was not retroactively changed, therefore it, by definition, cannot be a retcon. It's metaplot.

Actually, the change that "Abeir is actually a sundered part of Toril, which nobody knew about until the Spellplague started swapping parts of the two worlds" is a retcon, since "Abeir-Toril" in previous editions was simply the technical name for the planet - given that "cosmology" includes the Material Plane, this shows is that the continuity was retroactively changed, therefore it, by definition, is a retcon.

The second is that the 4e Cosmology was the new FR cosmology before 4e even started development.

Likewise, that the idea for a new cosmology had been in development before the Fourth Edition game rules were developed is a thin semantic distinction; the new cosmology was folded into the Fourth Edition realms as soon as there was a Fourth Edition, whereas it never appeared in Third Edition.

 

[DEFCON 1]

It'll be interesting to see what they do with the cosmology used for FR in 5e. It started out with the Great Wheel in 1e and 2e, was retconned into its own cosmology in 3e (which was largely the Great Wheel with the names filed off), and then 4e saw it retconned again into using the default 4e cosmology.

If I remember correctly... I think they said that rather than setting the FR in ONE time period or year for 5E, they were going to offer jumping off points for many different eras of the Forgotten Realms. So you can play during Time of Troubles, during the 3E past-Troubles time, after the 100 year jump like in 4E, and I would imagine also pre-Troubles FR as well. Basically exactly like what WotC set up for the Star Wars RPG, where you could set your campaign during the Old Republic, during the Prequel era, during the original trilogy's Rebellion, during the post-Jedi New Republic, or out as far as New Jedi Order.

So in that regard... you probably would just use whichever style of the cosmology makes the most sense for whatever FR era you set your game.

 

[Mattachine]

One thing I absolutely hated about Planescape was the half-assed cockney rhyming slang ripped off to use in Sigil.
It would similar to a British company making a fantastic world where Bronx slang was used.

That was totally "barmy".