D&D 5E 5e Psion+++++thread

[Smackpixi]

To make it different than magic and all the magic-like abilities in 5e you need a different mechanic around it. Otherwise it just boils down to an exclusive spell list. Something like, Psionic abilities take a turn to prepare, and then another to unleash. And the result is worth the two turn setup, need to protect the concentration of the Psion. Everything in in 5e is just a spell if it’s not a straight melee attack. Fancy melee attack abilities might as well be spell buffed attacks.

To make Psionics great, they need to be functionally, mechanically, different than spells, and not just flavored different.

The thing about items was good. Psionic items unusable by the normal magic half of the universe. In a world, could set it up if you were magic or Psionic for every class.

I really want to love a conception of Psionics, but more than exclusive spells, what is? Maybe give it the DCC treatment of magic where casting can change you.

It has to be mechanically different to be meaningfully other than spells.

 

[fuindordm]

Good point from @GnomeWorks . If other classes have common access to abilities that are part of the psion's core identity, it kind of de-justifies the class. Of course this is a problem with later editions of D&D generally, where the different spellcasting classes and spell lists bleed into each other so easily.

So start with defining what you want the psion to do, then ruthlessly strip those core abilities from the other classes. Mage hand, ESP, Suggestion... no longer available, or available only at higher level compared to the psion. Enchanter subclass--gone.

I think the 2E psionics handbook is the best effort from TSR or WotC towards making psionics its own thing. It wasn't perfect but it had a lot of themed powers that were totally unlike what magic could accomplish.

For mechanics, I think having a pool of power points is fine. It's like a mana bar, and most players are familiar with the concept. I like the idea of burning HP or temp HP to get more PP. This is a case where simplicity trumps flavor. Save the complex stuff for the powers (see below) so it is opt-in for players who want a more immersive experience.

Detrimental side effects of psionics are a tough sell. If the whole class is built around the possibility of side effects, then how do you compensate them compared to "normal" classes? You can't just give them more powerful abilities because this makes the psionic player hog the spotlight and dominate encounters. Instead I would suggest giving some of the powers a "safe mode" (more expensive to use) and a "risky mode" (less expensive but with side effect). Alternatively, have some other cost to make the power safe, like needing 1 round to prepare your mental fortress to deal with the strain. You don't have to do this with every power, there should be a variety of passive and subtle powers that are easier to use. Eleven doesn't get a nosebleed when she tried to find people in a sensory deprivation tank, but she does when she uses telekinesis.

 

[TheSword]

I think the psionics are different/psionics are the same debate gets a lot of people hung up and stops them getting into the meatier more interesting aspects.

I wonder if 3e didn’t have the right approach and just let the DM of a particular campaign decide whether it’s the same or different. If the DM wants detect magic/dispel/antimagic sphere to work on psionics in their world they can. If they don’t they can too. Though I do think that opting for the latter route requires psionic methods to detect, cancel and prevent psionics working to maintain balance.

Right now that’s out of the way everyone can focus on what psionics can do.

 

[Zardnaar]

For me it's something like the sorcerer. BUT.

1. Psion points. Basically spell points. No slots kind of a buff in 5.5.

2. Universal powers. A mix of divination and enchantments "spells"

3. Subclasses. Each one picks an additional school. Psychokinetic gets invoker type powers. Psychmetabolic gets transmutation.

4. Int and con saves, light armor.

5. Psi warrior is their version of Valor bard.

6. Four subclasses. Psycho metabolic, warrior, kinetics, mentalist.

7. Powers known similar to 5.5 sorcerer.

Alot of spells would resemble spells. Unique powers woukd exist. A pschokinetic energy ball is similar to fireball but like dragons breath you pick the power.

In effect though you're only getting 3 schools though and two of them are basic powers. A osionic synaptic static effect would be mentalist power. Charm, dominate, etc would be any psion.

Heavily based on a blend of 2E and 3E very tight focus. Add some augmentation from 4E. Eg energy ball might be +2d6 when augmented vs fireball 1d6 upcast. Let them augment canrips perhaps.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I think the psionics are different/psionics are the same debate gets a lot of people hung up and stops them getting into the meatier more interesting aspects.

I wonder if 3e didn’t have the right approach and just let the DM of a particular campaign decide whether it’s the same or different. If the DM wants detect magic/dispel/antimagic sphere to work on psionics in their world they can. If they don’t they can too. Though I do think that opting for the latter route requires psionic methods to detect, cancel and prevent psionics working to maintain balance.

Right now that’s out of the way everyone can focus on what psionics can do.

Whether it is affected by magic or not--which is the thing from 3e you're referring to--is not particularly relevant to the "are psionics different or not?" question.

The "are psionics different or not?" question is about whether doing psionics is the same thing as doing spells, or different. If it's the same, a lot of fans will feel alienated and frustrated, because then it feels like spellcasting has simply absorbed yet another (very) powerful supernatural force, subjugating it under its all-encompassing hegemony, forcing everyone to dance to the tune of spellcasting. If it doesn't work like spellcasting, then you have a different group, IMO a smaller one but proportionally more vocal, that gets upset by what they see as unnecessary reduplication of effort: why make two ways of Do Something Supernatural when you could just have one, consistent, universal way to Do Something Supernatural (pay no attention to the other ways behind the curtain)?

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

We are too used to a pool of power points instead spell slots. I don't advice this to be changed.

The psionic is more about the "within spark". If magic is like using a mobile to ask a pizza and psionic would be like yourself cooking that pizza.

Psionic doens't need magic components (verbal, somatic or material) but it shows displays (auditory, material, olfatory, mental or visual). Displays can be a very important factor when the psionic manifester doesn't want to be detected or discovered during infiltration operations.

Fist of Zuoken as monk subclass could be right.

* I like the concept of psionic ardents like frienemies of divine spellcasters, with a love-hate relation. If the paladins worked like the "cop" the ardents would be like the bounty-hunters or private eyes. They may server the same boss but they aren't in the same hierarchy.

I reimagine the psionic wilders like a mixture of gamma mutants (Hulk smashs!) and Scarlet Witch in a bad day.

* Fraals should be added to the list of psionic species. I like blue goblin subrace because they are like the little-ugly-duckling version of master Yoda, rejected by everybody, even their own blood.

* Recently I had got an idea about how to show the psionic powers. It was to add a line of magic components for spiritual spellcasters. What am I talking about? The "spiritual magic" is like the reverge engineering of psionic powers and it can be used by "ordinary" spellcasters. The difference is the psionic manifesters don't need magic components but they show displays, and the spiritual spellcasters

For example

"Daze" (spell)
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 0, Sor/Wiz 0
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One humanoid creature of 4 HD or less
Duration: 1 round
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

Daze (Psionic)
Telepathy (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Psion/wilder 1
Display: Material and mental
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One humanoid creature that has 4 HD or less
Duration: 1 round
Saving Throw: Will negates
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 1

As the daze spell, except as noted here.
Augment
For every additional power point you spend, this power can affect a target that has Hit Dice equal to 4 + the additional points.

The merged version would be:

Daze (spiritual magic)
Telepathy/Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 0, Sor/Wiz 0, Psion/wilder 1
Components: V, S, M
Display: Material and mental
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One humanoid creature of 4 HD or less
Duration: 1 round
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
Augment
For every additional power point you spend, this power can affect a target that has Hit Dice equal to 4 + the additional points.

Then this should be useful to sell more books even for no-pro-psionic players.

 

[Corinnguard]

I think you hit on my main objection to what's been presented for Psionics in 5e - it's basically just re-flavored magic, and that's not how psionics were presented in past editions. Whatever it is, I would want it to be it's own discrete system with its own powers. I remember the Complete Handbook of Psionics in the 2e splatbook days and I liked the breakdown there of telepathic powers, psychometabolic powers, clairsentience, psychokinesis, and so on.

I agree that it should be somewhat limited. You pick one category for your powers with the possible exception of a couple powers in a related group - i.e. telepaths may be able to get something from clairsentience and psychokinesis, but not from psychometabolic. They can bring in oppositional power groups similar to the old Wizard schools.

At the risk of being strung up and quartered, can we just update the Complete Handbook of Psionics. I really liked that book.

My favorite book on psionics in D&D was 3e's Expanded Psionics Handbook and Complete Psionics. If you want to have something expanded to 5e, it ought to be these two in one book.

Are you also thinking of upgrading the psionic species to 5e?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I don’t think mechanical differences are real differences. Using points instead of slots is a difference that makes no difference. You really want to be able to do things no other class can, not just have a differently named resource to track.

Which brings us to the real problem in 5e - pretty much all traditionally psychic abilities - telepathy, telekinesis etc are available to any caster.

It really needs a redesign of the other caster classes to make a space for psi.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

To expand on my above idea, I'll make an example of the Psychokinesis Discipline, and specifically the Thermodynamism talent. Note this is purely off-the-cuff improvisation, so there's almost guaranteed to be large balance issues, excessive strength (or weakness), or silly holes because I neglected to consider something; please critique the form, not the numbers/presence of unintended interactions (unless such is so foundational as to be impossible to address.)

Spoiler: Example Mechanics

Discipline: Psychokinesis​

Psychokinesis is the Discipline for reshaping or redirecting the world around you with your own mind. Talents within this Discipline often have combat applications, but their effects extend far beyond that. Master psychokinesis, and everything around you is a tool.

Talent: Thermodynamism​

You have learned how to manipulate the heat in the environment around you. By careful manipulation of the flow of heat energy, you can freeze an enemy's heart or burn them from the inside out.

Initiate Effect
Select one target you can sense* within 60 feet. Then, select whether the effect is helpful or harmful, and whether it is cold or heat. If harmful, make one psi attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 1d8 damage (cold or fire depending on your choice), plus your psi modifier. If helpful, the target becomes resistant to the associated damage type until the end of your next turn.
Augment 1**
If harmful, you can instead make one attack roll against that target, and a number of additional targets you can sense within 5 feet of the initial target, up to a maximum of your psi modifier (minimum 1). The primary target takes 2d8 plus your psi modifier damage (fire or cold), and the secondary targets take 1d8 damage of the opposite type. If helpful, the target has resistance to damage of the associated type for one hour, and for that duration, the target is protected from hot or cold weather (based on your initial choice) as though wearing appropriate protective gear.
Augment 2
If harmful, you may choose make a number of additional attacks equal to half your proficiency bonus (rounded up), and each target hit takes 3d8 plus your psi modifier cold or fire damage. If helpful, you may target a number of creatures up to your psi modifier. This effect cannot be used at the same time as the Augment 1 effect, even if you have a feature that allows you to combine augment effects.
Augment 3
You can now blend harmful and helpful effects together. Select a number of targets up to your psi modifier, and make a psi attack against each; then, select a number of friendly targets equal to the number of targets hit by those attacks. If you chose heat, each target hit takes 5d8 plus your psi modifier fire damage, and each friendly target gains +2 AC until the end of your next turn. If you chose cold, each target hit takes 5d8 plus your psi modifier cold damage, and each friendly target adds +1 to their attack rolls and to the DC of any saves they cause another creature to make, until the end of your next turn.
Augment 4
As Augment 3, except that the effects last for one minute, and during that time, you may make use of Augment 1 effects as a Bonus action on this turn and each turn that this effect remains active on at least one allied target, though you must still spend the power points to do so.
Mastery Effect
Reduce the cost of augment powers for this discipline by 1 (minimum 1). If you instead choose to spend the normal number of points (or spend an additional point on the Augment 1 effect), you may roll each damage die twice and take the higher of the two dice for harmful effects. For helpful effects, you may double either their potency or their duration.

*"Sense" means see, hear, or observe through any personal means, including detecting the thoughts of nearby creatures. This sense must be one you personally possess: you cannot be using the senses of another creature for this purpose.
**You cannot augment a power with more power points than your limit, which is shown on your class table. (Loose idea: start with 1, increase by 1 at levels 5, 11, and 16; allow special displays of psionic prowess at 20, but only for one or two talents, not everything.)

I hope this demonstrates how psionics could work quite a bit differently from spells, despite sometimes doing loosely similar things to what spells do. Each Discipline would have at least four Talents in it, and there would be something like four Disciplines. (My ideas thus far have been Psychokinesis, Mesmerism, Cryptaesthesia, and Phrenomorphosis.) The Psion might have a limited number of Disciplines they can select talents from, which grows as they gain levels. Conversely, a "Wilder" type psionic class might be able to learn Talents from any Discipline, but with a significantly smaller pool of power points to draw upon: great generalists, but poor sustain, as opposed to the Psion, who is a focused specialist with staying power.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I don’t think mechanical differences are real differences. Using points instead of slots is a difference that makes no difference. You really want to be able to do things no other class can, not just have a differently named resource to track.

Which brings us to the real problem in 5e - pretty much all traditionally psychic abilities - telepathy, telekinesis etc are available to any caster.

It really needs a redesign of the other caster classes to make a space for psi.

Why not? Mechanical differences are quite literally what differentiates Fighters from both Rogues and Barbarians, but that seems to be sufficient for most people. (IIRC, you're generally more of a class-minimalist, but I believe even you accept that Fighters and Rogues are different things!)