D&D 5E 5e Sorcerer versus Wizard, which is better?

DM-Rocco

Explorer
Why would we talk about a feat though? We're talking about wizards vs sorcerers, not optional rules which take an ASI and put your ability scores behind.
I would like to hear your thoughts on this. Obviously, the variant human is a solid choice for just about anything since you get a bonus feat, but even with an 18 starting ability raised to 19 with the +1, if you want that to eventually become a 20, you'll have to spend a feat on that or use the ability increase to accomplish this, so if your goal is to get a stat to 20 before level 10, is it ever really a good idea to take human if you are just going to spend the bonus feat on an ability increase anyway?
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
I would like to hear your thoughts on this. Obviously, the variant human is a solid choice for just about anything since you get a bonus feat, but even with an 18 starting ability raised to 19 with the +1, if you want that to eventually become a 20, you'll have to spend a feat on that or use the ability increase to accomplish this, so if your goal is to get a stat to 20 before level 10, is it ever really a good idea to take human if you are just going to spend the bonus feat on an ability increase anyway?

I think the whole discussion of feats is a moot point. Because IF you use feats, the Wizard would get that same feat as well (Warcaster, Alert, Lucky, etc.). If you're needing to spend a feat just to get your class equal to the Wizard, then you're by definition still behind the Wizard, because they also got a Feat/ASI.

In addition, I don't even think it's common for Sorcerer players to choose the Ritual Caster feat, particularly not at first level as a human, but I don't have hard data to support that. It just doesn't seem like something I've heard anyone doing, either around here, at the WOTC boards before they closed, on Reddit boards, YouTube, etc.. Where is this idea even coming from that Sorcerer's typically choose variant human and select Ritual Caster as their one feat at that level?
 

DM-Rocco

Explorer
Oh and here is that evidence I was talking about...

View attachment 113866

Here Are The Most Popular D&D Feats (War Caster Leads The Pack!)

1/3 of all characters take a feat by level 4 (most characters first opportunity) From my personal experience, a minority of players take a feat at level 4 which matches up with this chart. However, in my experience in my groups there's typically at least 1 player taking a feat by level 4 and more characters take them as they level higher.

To me this chart models that behavior as I'd expect if a majority of games allowed feats. I'd hate to see the explanation of this chart if a majority of games did not allow feats.
I find both your arguing amusing, but I side with Mistwell on this...plus, this doesn't say it is a list of all players in the game. It lists who takes feats, and I assume that is who takes feats versus stat increases out of those that take or play with feats. Otherwise, the numbers would be the same for each category.
 

5ekyu

Hero
I think the whole discussion of feats is a moot point. Because IF you use feats, the Wizard would get that same feat as well (Warcaster, Alert, Lucky, etc.). If you're needing to spend a feat just to get your class equal to the Wizard, then you're by definition still behind the Wizard, because they also got a Feat/ASI.

In addition, I don't even think it's common for Sorcerer players to choose the Ritual Caster feat, particularly not at first level as a human, but I don't have hard data to support that. It just doesn't seem like something I've heard anyone doing, either around here, at the WOTC boards before they closed, on Reddit boards, YouTube, etc.. Where is this idea even coming from that Sorcerer's typically choose variant human and select Ritual Caster as their one feat at that level?
While no argument thst ritual caster is big, I have not seen it as the first feat for sorcerers either. There are a lot of other contenders and, really, if variety in spells is your goal, there are other classes.

I mean, the wizards gains double the spells known at least level by level and prepared keeps pace do if sat 4th you are already needing to spend feats to address that, you are in for a long road of woe.
 

DM-Rocco

Explorer
I didn't read it whole (just first 20 and last 10 posts) What about 3 lvl sorc (CHA only 13 for taking MC) for metamagic and Wizard X (with max INT)? MC spell slots remain same, so in 20 lvl you have access to 9th spellslots and spells too. And "at will" transfering spellslots need more higher slots? sacrifice lower and vice versa.
I kind of decided sometime after the first 20 posts to focus on Wizard to cast spells not available to the Sorcerer and to get them earlier I decided not to multiclass, but that is not a bad idea, thanks for the input.
 

DM-Rocco

Explorer
I think the whole discussion of feats is a moot point. Because IF you use feats, the Wizard would get that same feat as well (Warcaster, Alert, Lucky, etc.). If you're needing to spend a feat just to get your class equal to the Wizard, then you're by definition still behind the Wizard, because they also got a Feat/ASI.

In addition, I don't even think it's common for Sorcerer players to choose the Ritual Caster feat, particularly not at first level as a human, but I don't have hard data to support that. It just doesn't seem like something I've heard anyone doing, either around here, at the WOTC boards before they closed, on Reddit boards, YouTube, etc.. Where is this idea even coming from that Sorcerer's typically choose variant human and select Ritual Caster as their one feat at that level?
I don't know about your last question, it is not what I was asking, but I did just play a drow elf sorcerer and I took ritual casting at 4th level, but I might be in the minority.

I was referring to whether or not it is worth taking human for the extra feat at all if you are just going to use the feat to increase an ability score. Example, why take human to get your 19 INT to 20 if you can just start as a gnome and start with 20 and have other abilities? Basically it seems like people like playing the human because of the bonus feat, but does that matter if you can play a non-human, get cool things like darkvision and whatever else, and start with a 20 in a prime stat?
 


mortwatcher

Explorer
I don't know about your last question, it is not what I was asking, but I did just play a drow elf sorcerer and I took ritual casting at 4th level, but I might be in the minority.

I was referring to whether or not it is worth taking human for the extra feat at all if you are just going to use the feat to increase an ability score. Example, why take human to get your 19 INT to 20 if you can just start as a gnome and start with 20 and have other abilities? Basically it seems like people like playing the human because of the bonus feat, but does that matter if you can play a non-human, get cool things like darkvision and whatever else, and start with a 20 in a prime stat?

having 18 or 20 in main stat at lvl 1 for a caster (for martials it's a bonus damage which is very nice) does not have as big of an immediate impact as having a feat at lvl 1

caster taking a feat for a stat increase is usually not the best choice (barring maybe resilient, which comes with a nice extra bonus if you are not already proficient in that save)
 

Ashrym

Legend
lmao, holy crap that was an answer...thanks.

I think I'm set on wanting to do a wizard because they have some spells I want to cast that sorcerers can't, like Arcane Eye for one instance.

You did mention that you house rule CHR bonus of level +1 to the Sorcerer spells know does break the game. What are your thoughts on either a FEAT or BACKGROUND called Wizard School Sorcerer where you get to pick one additional spell known from the Wizard list and it doesn't count towards your max spells known...maybe up to your CHR or INT modifier?

The CHR bonus to spells known or continuing the spells known progression. I haven't seen both and the spells known formula is more common because other spells known casters want stat bonus to known as well. Most of the time I've seen the DM specifically wants the sorc to learn more known. The basic progression is sorc level +1 until it's halved for the high tier and eliminated for epic tier. It doesn't break the class to simply continue with a spell for 21 spells known eventually.

To answer your question, magic initiate already exists and isn't a bad way to pick up another 1st level spell, more cantrips, and a free casting. In play test it was part of a chain where additional feats added a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level spell. I am not sure why it was dropped. Probably because it's expensive in feats costs to the point no one would ever spend 4 ASI's just for more spells known.

Magic initiate allow a spellcaster to use the spell learned using slots in addition to the free casting as long as it's from one of the classes to which the spellcaster accesses spells. So a sorc who takes magic initiate sorcerer gains a 1st level spell known, 1 freebie use of that spell, and 2 extra cantrips. The alternative would be taking a spell with a long duration from another list (like mage armor) and just using the freebie cast.

You would need to talk to your DM if all you want is more spells known. I wouldn't hesitate to allow a feat to grant a first level spell from any class to be known and use a choice of caster stat as in line with other feats and not stepping on the toes of magical secrets or other feats too much.

It's easier just to take even a single level of pretty much any class with spells, however; sorcs are pretty MC friendly. I like abusing the sorc capstone when I get into an epic game so I tend not to MC. The sorc capstone is a pretty good prep device. It's better than the wizard capstone, but the 18th level wizard ability is actually better than either, imo, so a definite consideration if you play to that tier. Spell mastery is a definite on the wizard list of pros.

I find both your arguing amusing, but I side with Mistwell on this...plus, this doesn't say it is a list of all players in the game. It lists who takes feats, and I assume that is who takes feats versus stat increases out of those that take or play with feats. Otherwise, the numbers would be the same for each category.

Organized gameplay allows feats. It seems to be the default until the DM decides otherwise, and makes sense as to why it's included in the SRD and PHB instead of a section of the DMG. The statistics we were given demonstrated higher levels use feats (presumably because ASI's take priority) starting around 12th level but most players aren't that high so the majority of players were not shown to be using feats. Feats not being allowed as the reason is just an assumption that's disproven by the feats appearing at higher levels.

It's all speculation, however. ;-)
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
It's easier just to take even a single level of pretty much any class with spells, however; sorcs are pretty MC friendly. I like abusing the sorc capstone when I get into an epic game so I tend not to MC. The sorc capstone is a pretty good prep device. It's better than the wizard capstone, but the 18th level wizard ability is actually better than either, imo, so a definite consideration if you play to that tier. Spell mastery is a definite on the wizard list of pros.
Getting to third level in warlock grants basically the same benefit. Two - second level slots you can turn into 4 sorcery points every short rest. Plus some nice stuff like two invocations, more spells known, and a magical weapon, a pet or rituals
 

Remove ads

Top