D&D 5E A 5e BECMI?

[nedjer]

But what about those that want to buff, demonstrate rules expertise, but who don't necessarily want their mega-battle to take two hours?

That's like saying that Jane drives a Ford F150 because she likes being that high off the ground, has a thing for trucks, and enjoys paying a lot for gas. But maybe Jane simply has a need to haul stuff all the time, and the rest of it is sacrifice to get the hauling ability. Or maybe she does like part of that, but not the rest.

That people will put up with long fights is not evidence that they want long fights.

Absolutely right - the three given aren't necessarily linked and Mike Mearls has previously posted that he's looking to bring down combat times.

You're talking to the long converted here on options and modularity, as both the systems I've done so far have been very focused on that. However, there's a point at which a lot of discretion/ emphasis switches back to the GM as interpreter and presenter of the rules once you get back before 2e-ish. Trusting the GM over the rules has been played down more recently, (in my view), so I see a kind of very broad switch in style being involved in essentially taking the easy option and saying, (as I have), I'm good with GMs' discretion, lets go back to the imaginative roots and build from there.

As it happens I'm prepping what might offer an example in another window. I'll come back when I've done posting it

 

[ExploderWizard]

You don't throw out elegant design completely merely because something that looks similar to that elegant design has been misused in the past.

Kind of like throwing out the defining differences between magic users and non-magic users because a previous edition decided that removing the restrictions on magical power was a good idea leading to a mistaken belief that casters were somehow broken?

Yeah, I get that.

 

[kitsune9]

My own opinion is that I think 5e will BECMI.

My own take of what makes a BECMI is:

1. Boxed sets.
2. Two small rulebooks, 64 pages for players, 96 pages for GM.
3. Dice for the first set.
4. Combat counters, maps/tiles for each set.
5. Expansionable material that is core with each box set.

How they will achieve that, I don't know. Will skills be in the basic set? Will feats? What will powers look like? Distinction on races?

 

[steeldragons]

And what constitutes the BECMI feel? I lean toward simple rules, vancian magic, and easy to understand classes. (Though I do not feel the need to make elf, dwarf, and halflings classes.)

The Auld Grump

I would agree with your list:
Simple Rules
Memorize & Forget Magic (I've never been a fan of the "Vancian" title...never even heard of it before I starting reading ENworld, actually. But yeah, that.).
Archetypal Classes
Distinct Races (and yes, no race as class, but race and class)
Evocative examples and cool art of the simple rules
Separate booklets for Players and DMs!
Everything being presented in digestible chunks of information! (very rarely did any particular race, class or rule set require more than a single page...if not just a single column of information.
And, just cuz, I am a sucker for spell lists.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

My own opinion is that I think 5e will BECMI.

My own take of what makes a BECMI is:

1. Boxed sets.
2. Two small rulebooks, 64 pages for players, 96 pages for GM.
3. Dice for the first set.
4. Combat counters, maps/tiles for each set.
5. Expansionable material that is core with each box set.

How they will achieve that, I don't know. Will skills be in the basic set? Will feats? What will powers look like? Distinction on races?

This, very much this.

However, in this day and age the basic material should be fully compatible with the advanced. The basic people should be able to use advanced monsters and magic items and a party of advanced and basic characters should be able to operate together under the advanced rules. Though in the case of characters the reverse need not be necessarly be true.

 

[nedjer]

This seems an example of where a Referee's discretion/ 'Old School style' is quite far removed from rules-drive play, i.e. 'go right ahead and try one of these if you like, but expect the GM to act to balance the game' - compared to 'the rules say I can do this without conditions':

Majestic Mind Eaters

 

[Alan Shutko]

The thing I miss most from BECMI is the progression in the types of adventures you do. AD&D 1-4e all just handled "You go out, adventure, and earn levels, then you do it again." BECMI D&D, by default, assumes more of a life of growth. Start as young scrabbling adventurer, then gain fame and notariety, eventually can settle down with stronghold, land, rulership. As you gain levels, your scope and vision move from the village in which you were born, to your nation, to your world. Culminates in quest for immortality if you wish. You can just adventure for loot forever, but this gives more guidance on what to do something with it. (And don't worry, even at high levels, you'll still need to adventure, but at this point it's not "I want more money" but "I want to expand my kingdom" or something like that.)

Looking at the adventures drives this home for me. At higher levels, you're not just going into a new dungeon and bashing bigger monsters. You're running dominions, leading armies, dragging your fleets between the planes. I haven't seen that in the core rules in a long time. There are 3rd party rules which help support them... But as with any 3rd party book, that means it's a tiny segment of the gamers.

 

[Stormonu]

I would very much like to see a 5E that swings back towards a BECMI-like game (especially the BE part; was never much for CMI play).

In fact, I would go so far to suggest:

Basic Level
- D&D board game, along the lines of the Heroquest game (

Expert Level
- Add-on packs that introduce an outdoor world and campaign game to the above (somewhat like Descent - Road to Legend)

Companion Level
- Rule add-on packs for a more traditional D&D type game (about the complexity of 1E/2E/Castles & Crusades)

Master Level
- In-depth additions on par with Rolemaster/3E level of D&D play

 

[Reynard]

The thing I miss most from BECMI is the progression in the types of adventures you do. AD&D 1-4e all just handled "You go out, adventure, and earn levels, then you do it again." BECMI D&D, by default, assumes more of a life of growth. Start as young scrabbling adventurer, then gain fame and notariety, eventually can settle down with stronghold, land, rulership.

BECMI made the progression more explicit -- by virtue of tying it to the boxed sets -- but it was there in every edition up to 3rd. AD&D 1E had not only "name level" and gaining followers, but rules for castle construction in the DMG. Did you have to fill in the spaces between the rules? Sure, but you had to do that with everything. 2E was a little lighter on this side of things, though there were still followers and name level and such, but primarily because PCs weren't expected to be played past 10th level or so. It was 3E that eliminated the concept of "name level" and removed the "changing game" element of a long term campaign. The nail in the coffin was, I think, Paizo's fault -- the Adventure Path mentality, that a "campaign" consisted of one long term adventure, left no room for sandboxing, settling the wilderness or starting a guild. (This started earlier of course, most notably with the Dragonlance "adventure path" but Paizo established the modern trend.)

 

[Reynard]

No matter what rules are used as a base, no matter what flavor of fantasy they go for, there should be one goal for the designers of a future version of D&D (and any other RPG, in fact; I just purchased The One Ring and I wish they would have followed this simple rule there, too):

Do it in 64 pages.

If you can't design a complete game in 30K words, more or less, that provides a satisfying game experience and makes people want to play more of it, you have failed. The very worst thing to happen to RPGs over the years is the page bloat.

I get it -- people became readers and collectors and stopped being players. Companies realized they could market to the readers by giving them books that were more useful as texts than as instructions. White Wolf was the real force behind this, but many companies followed. The rules got buried in the walls of text, making it harder to actually play the game. Try finding rules in the original 3E PHB.

So, regardless of anything else, I say Trim The Fat. Write it up in 64 pages. Sell it in a box with an adventure and dice and, if you're so inclined, another 64 page book full of setting or other "flavor" material. But make it complete and playable and fun and worth the investment.

Of course, if you need a huge revenue stream (because you are a subsidary of one of the world's biggest toy manufacturers, frex) this doesn't work. You might as well make an expandable board game and put the D&D logo on it, because that is the only way you are going to make a successful table top D&D on that scale today.