A bit of a problem with Infusions

[UltimaGabe]

Hey, everyone. I've been playing an Artificer for the last four or five levels, and for the most part, I love it. I love being able to craft all sorts of items, I like the infusions, and for the most part, it's been great. I've had a few questions here and there regarding infusions and item creation, but none of them are as strange as one I have right now.

As you all know, Infusions generally turn worn items (mundane or magical) into temporary magic items, such as a belt or cloak or whatever with the Bull's Strength infusion giving the wearer a +4 to strength, or the Shield of Faith infusion granting a warforged a +2 (or higher) deflection bonus to AC. It's great, because not many infusions (until a couple at higher levels) are offensive.

Once you get into higher levels, however, some of them ARE offensive. And, you see, because a little clause put into the Infusion ability description, these offensive spells, although usually gotten at a later level than their Arcane or Divine counterparts, are much, much more powerful than said counterparts. You know why?

It's because, according to the description of the Infusion class ability of the Artificer, Infusions never allow saves.

That's right. So when your Artificer gets to 3rd level, he can cast Heat Metal or Chill Metal onto a person's armor, and they don't get a save to resist it. Warforged and other Constructs never get a save for half against their Inflict Serious Damage infusions. But, even more deadly than all of these, I want to point you all to a couple of the Artificer's 6th-level Infusions.

Disable Construct, the Construct version of Harm, has no save either. So that means against a Construct (a being without a Constitution score, remember), Disable Construct will always do 150 points of damage (assuming you're level 15 when you use it). Always. No save.

What's worse? Take a look at what their other 6th-level Infusions are- specifically, BLADE BARRIER. 15d6 points of Force damage, affecting a considerably large area, with NO SAVE. NO SAVE. NO SAVE AT ALL. Every enemy in a 20-foot radius suddenly takes an average of 45 points of damage that affects incorporeal foes, gets through all forms of Damage Reduction, and isn't subject to any sort of Energy Resistance. Oh, and it lasts for minutes per level, if I'm not mistaken. So if they don't move, they take another 45 points of damage next round, same effects as before. And again. And again. And again. All of this with nothing but Spell Resistance blocking it.

Anyone know of any Errata coming out for Eberron soon? Because it needs it. BADLY.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Hey, everyone. I've been playing an Artificer for the last four or five levels, and for the most part, I love it. I love being able to craft all sorts of items, I like the infusions, and for the most part, it's been great. I've had a few questions here and there regarding infusions and item creation, but none of them are as strange as one I have right now.

As you all know, Infusions generally turn worn items (mundane or magical) into temporary magic items, such as a belt or cloak or whatever with the Bull's Strength infusion giving the wearer a +4 to strength, or the Shield of Faith infusion granting a warforged a +2 (or higher) deflection bonus to AC. It's great, because not many infusions (until a couple at higher levels) are offensive.

Once you get into higher levels, however, some of them ARE offensive. And, you see, because a little clause put into the Infusion ability description, these offensive spells, although usually gotten at a later level than their Arcane or Divine counterparts, are much, much more powerful than said counterparts. You know why?

It's because, according to the description of the Infusion class ability of the Artificer, Infusions never allow saves.

I think you'll find that the process of putting the infusion into an object doesn't allow a save, but the ensuing effect of that infusion allows a save as normal.

What's worse? Take a look at what their other 6th-level Infusions are- specifically, BLADE BARRIER. 15d6 points of Force damage, affecting a considerably large area, with NO SAVE. NO SAVE. NO SAVE AT ALL. Every enemy in a 20-foot radius suddenly takes an average of 45 points of damage that affects incorporeal foes, gets through all forms of Damage Reduction, and isn't subject to any sort of Energy Resistance. Oh, and it lasts for minutes per level, if I'm not mistaken. So if they don't move, they take another 45 points of damage next round, same effects as before. And again. And again. And again. All of this with nothing but Spell Resistance blocking it.

Now go read the 3.5 ed rules. Blade barrier doesn't fill out a 20ft radius. It makes a wall. It's never possible to do multiple rounds of damage to a creature - because the clause that the creature takes damage as if passing through the wall only applies to the round on which it appears. After that, the creature is either on one side of the wall or the other. He only takes more damage if he deliberately walks through the thing.

So, at best a few enemies take the damage once, and the battlefield is split by the wall.

And that's assuming your interpretation is right, which I certainly don't think it is.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It's never possible to do multiple rounds of damage to a creature - because the clause that the creature takes damage as if passing through the wall only applies to the round on which it appears. After that, the creature is either on one side of the wall or the other.

Unless his face is larger than 5', in which case he could, in theory, choose to be on both sides of the wall...

-Hyp.

 

[UltimaGabe]

I think you'll find that the process of putting the infusion into an object doesn't allow a save, but the ensuing effect of that infusion allows a save as normal.

I would be inclined to agree with you for balance purposes, but #1- the description of the ability specifically states that infusions never allow saves, and nothing in the description says anything about the "ensuing effects" of the infusion allowing saves, and #2- that would defeat the entire purpose of not having a save, wouldn't it? Either the spell allows a save once at the beginning and then takes its course, or it's the ensuing effects that call for saves in the first place.

As for the Blade Barrier argument, I suppose my group has been reading the spell description differently than it appears in the SRD. Either way, however, it's AT LEAST an initial 45 points of damage, as, according to the Infusion Description, they never get a save. So the initial damage is done, and if anyone wants to pass through it (if, say, you stick your enemies between a wall and the barrier) then they automatically take damage, as the save still isn't allowed.

I understand the game mechanics of it, but they really made a big mistake when they said that Infusions NEVER allow saves.

 

[TDRandall]

Disable Construct, the Construct version of Harm, has no save either. So that means against a Construct (a being without a Constitution score, remember), Disable Construct will always do 150 points of damage (assuming you're level 15 when you use it). Always. No save.

Well, there's the "you have to touch it to affect it" issue, although that might not be quite the problem at 14th level as it is at 1st. For this specific case, p111 says it does allow a "Will half; see text" saving throw so somehow it doesn't completely fall under the "no save" rule. If it weren't a "1 standard action" effect then there is the chance for disrupting concentration.

What's worse? Take a look at what their other 6th-level Infusions are- specifically, BLADE BARRIER.

I don't know the specifics of Blade Barrier, but I'm a bit foggy how this can even be considered an infusion since they "can only be imbued into an item or a construct." (p31) I seem to remember a place elsewhere that seemed to relax that restriction somewhat, but can't find that at the moment.

Maybe there are "infusions" (simply on the Artificer's list) and then there are "INFUSIONS" (the class' focus on imbuing objects with special abilities, with no saves)? I do notice that armor enhancement, lesser specifically says "None (object)"

I agree, it needs review and/or clarification, probably some form of errata. The concept is cool and new, but thereby also untried (in the sense that 3.5 was brought about when the "playtesters" became the entire community). I'm hoping that with Eberron being THE setting that we can expect quicker response on errata, but who knows?

 

[Saeviomagy]

Unless his face is larger than 5', in which case he could, in theory, choose to be on both sides of the wall...

-Hyp.

He still doesn't (by the RAW) take the damage, because he doesn't perform the action of 'passing through the wall'.

I think that blade barrier has been deliberately worded so it is no longer an area-effect-over-time monster killer. It is what it's name says it is - a barrier.

Finally - the difference between not allowing a save against the infusion and not allowing a save against the effect of the infusion is as follows:

In the animate rope spell, the save is given as "no". This is because it is cast on a nonliving ropelike object. However, if you attack with it, it may cause any creature that fails it's reflex save to become entangled.

Perhaps you could post the paragraph in which the save against an infusion is denied? I think you'll find it says that the infusion itself allows no save, not "no save is allowed against the effects of an infusion"

 

[UltimaGabe]

"To imbue an item with an infusion, an artificer must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the infusion level (Int 11 for 1st-level infusions, Int 12 for 2nd-level infusions, and so forth). Infusions never allow saving throws."

-From the Eberron Campaign Setting Book, in the Infusions class ability description. This is the complete paragraph, identical in every way to every spellcasting classes' spell description- except that, unlike all other spellcasting classes' descriptions, there is no mention of "The save DC is 10 + the spell level + the caster's ability modifier" in the entire description.

As for Blade Barrier and such not directly affecting items, I was confused about that as well, when I first made my character. I wondered how things like Wall of Force, Wall of Stone, or Blade Barrier could be Infusions, since I thought they all seemingly had to be cast onto items- so I asked around on these boards, and the only logical explanation any of us were able to come up with was that in the case of a targeted spell, it must be cast directly onto the item, whereas area or effect spells (such as the aforementioned Wall or Barrier spells) act as they normally do. There simply isn't any other explanation, unless every such Infusion the Artificer uses must be cast onto some sort of unattended object (either way, it isn't explained. That's the most logical explanation- it simply acts as the spell normally would).

I'm sure we can all agree that there has to be some sort of Erratta on this. I'm simply interpereting things exactly as they're written.

 

[Hypersmurf]

He still doesn't (by the RAW) take the damage, because he doesn't perform the action of 'passing through the wall'.

I think that blade barrier has been deliberately worded so it is no longer an area-effect-over-time monster killer. It is what it's name says it is - a barrier.

Well, by the reading of "doesn't perform the action", it wasn't an area-effect-over-time monster killer in 3E either. (Which I argued more than once, from memory )

From 3E:
Any creature passing through the blade barrier takes 1d6 points of slashing damage per caster level (maximum 20d6).
Creatures within the blade barrier when it is invoked take the damage as well. They can negate the damage with a successful Reflex saving throw, provided they can and do physically leave the area of the blades by the shortest possible route. Once the barrier is in place, anything entering or passing through the blades automatically takes damage.

So if I don't leave the area of the blades, I take damage when it's invoked. On the next round, as I stand in the middle of the area of the horizontal plane of the spell, I am neither entering nor passing through the blades, so I don't take damage. No area-effect-over-time monster killer.

-Hyp.

 

[Seravin]

<snip>

It's because, according to the description of the Infusion class ability of the Artificer, Infusions never allow saves.

<snip>

Anyone know of any Errata coming out for Eberron soon? Because it needs it. BADLY.

I don't know of any erratta yet, but Keith Baker is answering questions on the WoTC Eberron boards
here.

Also, the link above is where he starts answering some artificer questions (It's 40 pages).

Other things to note is that unless specifically mentioned, that infusions follow the casting times of spells (4th page). Animate Object should have been added to the infusion list (17th page)

It's on page 30 that he finally answers your question.
Essentially the text is in error and saving throws should be calculated off the Artificer's Intelligence.