Raven Crowking
First Post
Dannager said:
This is, AFAICT, the substance of all of your posts in this thread.
RC
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NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
A bit tired of people knocking videogames...
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This is, AFAICT, the substance of all of your posts in this thread.
RC
JamesonCourage
Adventurer
If it feels like playing a video game, it's not worth it usually because, while I like video games, it's much longer between my turns now. People in general (not all, mind you) like a more immersive and simulationist approach in their tabletop RPGs that video games cannot provide. It doesn't have to be even majorly simulationist, but if it feels like a video game to them, in any general sense, it's a drawback. Why should they play it, when they can just play a video game and have their turns accrue at a constant rate, rather than wait in combat for it to come back around again?
The issue isn't with whether or not video games are good or bad, it's about whether or not it feels like something that you don't want in your tabletop RPG, which is highly subjective. So, while you may like a video game feel in your game, or you may not, others will always disagree with you, to varying degrees, and in different proportions.
That's fine. However, saying something feels like something else communicates just that: a feeling. It's akin to saying "my job feels like I'm playing a game, not working." It's not necessarily a bad thing when you communicate feeling. Yes, if you said "seeing my family feels too much like going to my job," it'd have a negative connotation, just like when people say something is too "video-gamey." However, it doesn't mean they dislike video games, just that it's not what they're looking for right now.
Example, building on the above: I have varied interests, from playing games to philosophy to writing short stories. Right now, I want to talk about philosophy, and I'm debating where to go. First, however, here are some givens about my life:
1) My job feels like I'm playing a game, not working. I enjoy my job quite a bit.
2) Seeing my family feels too much like going to my job. I enjoy seeing them, but it's always just playing games.
3) My friends have similar interests to me.
Looking at the above, we can see that while I enjoy going to my job or going to see my family when I'm in the mood to play a game, I probably wouldn't want to do so when I'm writing short stories or when I want to discuss philosophy. It's not that I dislike my job or my family- in fact, it's quite the opposite. It's just that when a certain mood strikes, it's no longer ideal, and my enjoyment can be met by pursuing another activity, such as seeing my friends.
Saying that something is "too video-gamey" might rub you the wrong way, but it's supposed to get across a feeling. It's not any sort of slight against video games inherently. Yes, many people who say that will not enjoy video games, though it's not inherent to the statement itself. And, even if you feel it's not specific enough (even though it's usually used to communicate feeling or mood, which is hardly something that is easily discussed logically in dialogue), if you ask for reasons, it does indeed enhance communication, rather that detract from it.
Of course, these are just my views. Everyone has their own. In the end, though, play what you like
The issue isn't with whether or not video games are good or bad, it's about whether or not it feels like something that you don't want in your tabletop RPG, which is highly subjective. So, while you may like a video game feel in your game, or you may not, others will always disagree with you, to varying degrees, and in different proportions.
That's fine. However, saying something feels like something else communicates just that: a feeling. It's akin to saying "my job feels like I'm playing a game, not working." It's not necessarily a bad thing when you communicate feeling. Yes, if you said "seeing my family feels too much like going to my job," it'd have a negative connotation, just like when people say something is too "video-gamey." However, it doesn't mean they dislike video games, just that it's not what they're looking for right now.
Example, building on the above: I have varied interests, from playing games to philosophy to writing short stories. Right now, I want to talk about philosophy, and I'm debating where to go. First, however, here are some givens about my life:
1) My job feels like I'm playing a game, not working. I enjoy my job quite a bit.
2) Seeing my family feels too much like going to my job. I enjoy seeing them, but it's always just playing games.
3) My friends have similar interests to me.
Looking at the above, we can see that while I enjoy going to my job or going to see my family when I'm in the mood to play a game, I probably wouldn't want to do so when I'm writing short stories or when I want to discuss philosophy. It's not that I dislike my job or my family- in fact, it's quite the opposite. It's just that when a certain mood strikes, it's no longer ideal, and my enjoyment can be met by pursuing another activity, such as seeing my friends.
Saying that something is "too video-gamey" might rub you the wrong way, but it's supposed to get across a feeling. It's not any sort of slight against video games inherently. Yes, many people who say that will not enjoy video games, though it's not inherent to the statement itself. And, even if you feel it's not specific enough (even though it's usually used to communicate feeling or mood, which is hardly something that is easily discussed logically in dialogue), if you ask for reasons, it does indeed enhance communication, rather that detract from it.
Of course, these are just my views. Everyone has their own. In the end, though, play what you like
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Videogamey
From what I recall of the original and subsequent discussions back years ago, some posters were equating 4E with Diablo or World of Warcraft for a variety of reasons that may/may not have been real, but were rather the way the game play/rules made them feel.
Whether that is the way poster X or Y feels about it is beside the point. The posters in that time and even now are equating whichever game to whatever 'video game' that they are somewhat familiar with as a way, a shortcut, to describe how they perceive the rules/game play rather than having to post out a 10 paragraph essay each time on what they mean.
As several other posters have pointed out, people describe things differently, use words that make sense to them but not to everyone else. Sure, ask questions and follow up with, perhaps, "What video game does it remind you of? Pong? Pole Position? Donkey Kong? WoW?" That would be far more productive and get more responses than continuing to say 'it isn't anything like video games, you are wrong' or telling them that the term doesn't make any sense.
It is far more likely that the term, or the way they are using it, doesn't make sense to you (whomever you may be), but makes perfect sense to the poster. And that's OK, we don't always have to make sense to each other. Does it really matter if they think that and you think X game is the bee's knees, in the end, as long as you both can play whatever you want and have fun?
From what I recall of the original and subsequent discussions back years ago, some posters were equating 4E with Diablo or World of Warcraft for a variety of reasons that may/may not have been real, but were rather the way the game play/rules made them feel.
Whether that is the way poster X or Y feels about it is beside the point. The posters in that time and even now are equating whichever game to whatever 'video game' that they are somewhat familiar with as a way, a shortcut, to describe how they perceive the rules/game play rather than having to post out a 10 paragraph essay each time on what they mean.
As several other posters have pointed out, people describe things differently, use words that make sense to them but not to everyone else. Sure, ask questions and follow up with, perhaps, "What video game does it remind you of? Pong? Pole Position? Donkey Kong? WoW?" That would be far more productive and get more responses than continuing to say 'it isn't anything like video games, you are wrong' or telling them that the term doesn't make any sense.
It is far more likely that the term, or the way they are using it, doesn't make sense to you (whomever you may be), but makes perfect sense to the poster. And that's OK, we don't always have to make sense to each other. Does it really matter if they think that and you think X game is the bee's knees, in the end, as long as you both can play whatever you want and have fun?
Dannager
First Post
Reading the whole post would be a good place to start. I literally outlined exactly that as my next expansion of logic in the very post you quoted.
Dannager
First Post
No, I'm just expecting that when they come to participate in an open, online discussion on a topic that is years old, they should probably make a bit of effort to post sensibly.
Or they could read this thread, whose message is: "We know you are tempted to call it videogamey and be done with it, but that's not going to cut it because we aren't inside your head and have no idea what you mean. So how about skipping it and getting straight to the part that matters?"
I mean, you have essentially just agreed with the entire point of this thread.
Dannager
First Post
And yet, somehow, only the Select Few continue to find it confusing........
No, you (meaning the collective you who call X videogamey) find it confusing, too. You just don't disagree with it. There are a bunch of people who are all "4e is videogamey!" "Yeah, it's videogamey!" "Yeah, hit points don't make sense!" "What?! Hit points make perfect sense! That's not what I mean by 'videogamey'!"
We just recognize the confusion one step earlier.
Dannager
First Post
So you don't believe that we ought to make an effort towards accessible communication when we're involved in online discussions? I do.
Raven Crowking
First Post
That "you could just accept that .... in their mind it makes PERFECT sense to say videogamey."?
No. I believe that we shouldn't belabor the point. People have explained both on this thread and in the past what they have meant. The argument seems to be that they aren't explaining enough, and that is frankly not a requirement.
My personal belief in all this is that regardless of the word used or argument given, some people aren't going to agree or like it. It's the internet, after all, and people will argue about the wetness of water and the colour of the sky. The same points are being hit on over and over and neither side is giving in nor believes they are being unclear.
I guess my counter-question would be, how accessible does the communication of an opinion need to be? How far does the poster need to break down their opinion or is it alright in this medium to leave it where is sits?
Dannager
First Post
We don't disagree with this. When someone says something, of course they know what they mean by it. But that doesn't mean others will. We're letting you know that the word "videogamey" or even a statement like "4e is like a video game" does not have a widely understood meaning (as much as people might want to believe it does; just because two people both call 4e videogamey doesn't mean they are both thinking of the same thing, which is part of the problem), and that if you want to actually have a productive discussion, you should very strongly consider actually explaining your thoughts rather than condensing them to a made-up word and expecting everyone to nod their heads and say "Ohhhhhh."
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