D&D General A Gruumsh Of A Different Type

[GreenTengu]

The name you're looking for is "dwarves". Tolkien's collection of stereotypes was moderately less vitriolically hateful, but the dwarven refugees of The Hobbit are self-admittedly modeled on the Jewish diaspora. You'll note that more than half the traits you list there still apply.

In general the depiction of dwarves has evolved enough that it's not particularly a problem anymore. Not nearly so pressing an issue of that of orcs and a few others, at least. But it's important to know where the roots lie so we can be sure not to fall back on bad habits.

Oddly, within D&D, virtually all those traits came to be associated with Gnomes as opposed to Dwarfs. And I have a sneaking suspicion that it was because the writers wanted to cast Dwarfs in a "more positive light" and so cast off a lot of the Jewish stereotypes onto the Gnomes. Large noses, bookish, experts when it comes to money, good at science/tinkering. Within 2nd and 3rd edition, it isn't particularly well veiled at all.

I think around 4E someone kind of got embarrassed by it and tried to entirely reinvent the Gnome and recast them as a non-PC race.

 

[Mecheon]

I think around 4E someone kind of got embarrassed by it and tried to entirely reinvent the Gnome and recast them as a non-PC race.

Nah, 4E slid gnomes off to the side until it could figure out a way to make them work given gnomes niche historically being somewhere between "I dunno", "Uh, somewhere between elf and dwarf" and "Lol Dragonlance tinker gnome"

 

[grimslade]

Oddly, within D&D, virtually all those traits came to be associated with Gnomes as opposed to Dwarfs. And I have a sneaking suspicion that it was because the writers wanted to cast Dwarfs in a "more positive light" and so cast off a lot of the Jewish stereotypes onto the Gnomes. Large noses, bookish, experts when it comes to money, good at science/tinkering. Within 2nd and 3rd edition, it isn't particularly well veiled at all.

I think around 4E someone kind of got embarrassed by it and tried to entirely reinvent the Gnome and recast them as a non-PC race.

I'm a monster. Rawr. I have a lair. It was a silly time. Although I enjoy the fey wild bug-eyed gnomes.

Gruumsh is the god of determination. He gets up after he is knocked down. He continues to fight after losing an eye. He is both resolved and resigned. Orcs have been pushed out by elves, dwarves, and humans. They have been enslaved by various evil creatures. They continue to fight. To exist. There is tenacity and dogged determination to not be destroyed. Gruumsh is the battered Captain America telling Thanos, 'I can do this all day." Corellon may have taken Gruumsh eye, but he also gave him wisdom. The gift of clear vision required a sacrifice. Gruumsh learns from defeat. He does not rest on victory. The fight goes on.

 

[GreenTengu]

Oh-- besides Gruumish, what about Maglibiyet?

As I recall, isn't his whole thing that he has those devoted to him fight demons in the afterlife in order to seize control of the first layer of hell-- and a lot of the evil behavior of his followers is directly because they are trying to train their skills for the afterlife so that they can be an effective fighter when they arrive there.

If I am not misrememebering this-- isn't the fact that goblins are inherently anti-infernal a possible point in their favor of not necessarily being evil for the sake of being evil?

I don't really see a big issue with certain gods having a largely negative effect on the world so long as there is perfectly understandable motivation behind it. And if there is plenty of wiggle room so that being born an X doesn't necessarily mean you are a devotee of Y would probably help.

In fact-- maybe it would be good to functionally do away with strictly racial gods all together. A given god could absolutely still be the originator of a given race, but represent a greater cause that people from any given race could potentially be drawn to. I get that within D&D, because at one point they wanted characters to be able to ascend to godhood, that various gods were absolutely specific races.....

But what if, instead, the gods were not simply ascended mortals but were something above and beyond mortals? Thus they represented more aspects or aims and, in doing so, various races could possibly interpret them in different ways?

 

[Bohandas]

Oh-- besides Gruumish, what about Maglibiyet?

As I recall, isn't his whole thing that he has those devoted to him fight demons in the afterlife in order to seize control of the first layer of hell-- and a lot of the evil behavior of his followers is directly because they are trying to train their skills for the afterlife so that they can be an effective fighter when they arrive there.

If I am not misrememebering this-- isn't the fact that goblins are inherently anti-infernal a possible point in their favor of not necessarily being evil for the sake of being evil?

Now that I think of it, their afterlife being in Acheron fits well-intentioned extremism perfectly

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Oh-- besides Gruumish, what about Maglibiyet?

As I recall, isn't his whole thing that he has those devoted to him fight demons in the afterlife in order to seize control of the first layer of hell-- and a lot of the evil behavior of his followers is directly because they are trying to train their skills for the afterlife so that they can be an effective fighter when they arrive there.

If I am not misrememebering this-- isn't the fact that goblins are inherently anti-infernal a possible point in their favor of not necessarily being evil for the sake of being evil?

I don't really see a big issue with certain gods having a largely negative effect on the world so long as there is perfectly understandable motivation behind it. And if there is plenty of wiggle room so that being born an X doesn't necessarily mean you are a devotee of Y would probably help.

In fact-- maybe it would be good to functionally do away with strictly racial gods all together. A given god could absolutely still be the originator of a given race, but represent a greater cause that people from any given race could potentially be drawn to. I get that within D&D, because at one point they wanted characters to be able to ascend to godhood, that various gods were absolutely specific races.....

But what if, instead, the gods were not simply ascended mortals but were something above and beyond mortals? Thus they represented more aspects or aims and, in doing so, various races could possibly interpret them in different ways?

I’d almost prefer, in a world where there is a Dwarven Kingdom and an Elf Kingdom, for Moradin to be the Dwarf King and Corellon the Elf King, like Frey is the lord of the Alfar in Norse Myth.

if we don’t have those sorts of “race kingdom” nations, then I’m down to make the gods more general.

But I also don’t see any issue whatsoever with gods overlapping, so I’m also fine with some gods being tied to a people.

 

[Minigiant]

Oh-- besides Gruumish, what about Maglibiyet?

As I recall, isn't his whole thing that he has those devoted to him fight demons in the afterlife in order to seize control of the first layer of hell-- and a lot of the evil behavior of his followers is directly because they are trying to train their skills for the afterlife so that they can be an effective fighter when they arrive there.

If I am not misrememebering this-- isn't the fact that goblins are inherently anti-infernal a possible point in their favor of not necessarily being evil for the sake of being evil?

Yeah Maglubiyet is just gathering as many ruthless unclaimed souls he can get to beat up Gruumsh, Asmodeus, all the devils, and all the demons. He can stay Evil as a warrior who is anti-orc or anti-devil might pray to him for power.

He's basically off color Bane. That's why he's Bane's exarch in the Dawn war.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yeah Maglubiyet is just gathering as many ruthless unclaimed souls he can get to beat up Gruumsh, Asmodeus, all the devils, and all the demons. He can stay Evil as a warrior who is anti-orc or anti-devil might pray to him for power.

He's basically off color Bane. That's why he's Bane's exarch in the Dawn war.

Seems like a good patron of soldiers who have to fight superior military forces.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

A character who serves Maglubiyet might be an assassin rogue who could take Alert, and Tavern Brawler, and be played as someone who is always ready to immediately respond to an escalating situation with rapid and terrible violence. They see when a fight is about to start, and “shoot first”, because when you are smaller, less well armed, etc, your greatest weapon is just a readiness and willingness to go from 0 to vicious violence in the blink of an eye. Vengeance Paladins would find a natural ally in Maglubiyet.

Mag isn’t “evil” because they serve evil ends, but because their means are sometimes brutally ruthless.

 

[Charlaquin]

Anyone else think Maglubiyet is kind of a dumb name? It sounds like mal-oubliette, but slightly mixed-up and with a random glottal sound thrown in just for the hell of it. I hate reading it, I hate trying to spell it, I hate trying to pronounce it out loud, it’s just a bad name.