D&D General A Gruumsh Of A Different Type

[Chaosmancer]

I think if you play them to their strengths, it might read as "cowardly," but that's not the same thing as goblins being cowards.

Especially if you frame it in terms of modern warfare and SWAT teams.

Yes, the goblins shot you then melted back into the woods. That isn't cowardice, that is tactics.

Bugbears are shock troopers that specialize in ambushes from unexpected angles instead of frontal assaults. Your enemies are in tight formation? Have the bugbears flank them and break the backline. Your enemies are dug into a fortified location? Have the bugbears scale an "impassable" wall or cliff face to drop in and secure the gateway.

Hobgoblins attack in disciplined formation. Goblins sneak in to sabotage your stuff. Bugbears leap from ambush to gank the casters.

I find bugbears pretty easy to fit. They’re like a mix of tigers and cheetahs with the physicality of gorillas. Socially, they neat together in piles like cats, their play can seem scary and violent to outsiders and doesn’t end with childhood, and they spend most of their time in leisure if they can, punctuated by short bursts of speed and physical exertion that can be scary if when it isn’t violent.

The old “shock troop” placement makes no sense for them IMO. They’re better as ambushers, letting goblins set the bait, and wreaking havoc upon the enemy once they’re in an advantageous position, and then hobgoblins encircle with disciplined formations to destroy the enemy or ensure their surrender.

In a workspace, bugbears laze about waiting to be called upon to quickly move very heavy things. They can be pushed to work hard to extended periods but they will be exhausted afterward, and if you want long term productivity you want to let them take regular naps and do what they do best in short bursts.

I also tend to put them up in trees and such. They naturally like to live and sleep in places they are hard to get to, and from where they can ambush. Move settled bugbears make tree homes and villages with rope bridges and the like.

For me, I like the idea of Goblinoids being one race. They are related in some way. Which is a break from DnD lore (where the goblins, hobgoblins and Bugbears are all seperate races that Mag killed or subjugated their gods and piled them together)

And, going from "weak, sneaky, but tactical guerilla fighters" with goblins to "strong, straight-forward, tactical formations and warriors" for hobgoblins make perfect sense.

But Bugbears are the biggest and strongest, while also being sneaky, but they are also lazy.

And many of the shock trooper aspects work (thematically) better with either goblins or Hobgoblins.

Enemies dug into a fortified location? Goblin assassins and archers can sneak in, and leave the place a bloodbath (especially if the enemy is humans without darkvision) while the Hob's hold the siege in front.

Enemy in a tight formation? A flanking maneuver by disciplined soldiers with better formations, or guerrilla attacks from the rear are both devastating

Honestly, Bugbears seem more similar to ogres. Big, strong, and individual instead of working together. But scarier because they are smarter and sneakier than the ogres. The tiger analogy is also really good, but comes back to that same issue. Bugbears make the most sense as working individually, where goblins and hobgoblins both work within large tribes and units.

My current use of them is to make them the soldiers for the Winter Queen of the Fey, removing them from the Goblin equation entirely, maybe have them be the result of a deal between the goblins and the fey. They fit nicely there visually, and thematically in terms of being ambushers who are strong and can stand and fight too.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I have been pondering borrowing an idea from the Malazan books, that most of the (elder) gods aren't evil until their worshippers make them evil. And when your worshippers totally screw you up, you go from being a god to being a demon lord. Poor Gruumsh was an okay dude until he fell in with the orcs, but at least he is doing better than Yeenoghu. If the gnolls weren't asking for death and destruction on their enemies all the time....

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Especially if you frame it in terms of modern warfare and SWAT teams.

Yes, the goblins shot you then melted back into the woods. That isn't cowardice, that is tactics.






For me, I like the idea of Goblinoids being one race. They are related in some way. Which is a break from DnD lore (where the goblins, hobgoblins and Bugbears are all seperate races that Mag killed or subjugated their gods and piled them together)

And, going from "weak, sneaky, but tactical guerilla fighters" with goblins to "strong, straight-forward, tactical formations and warriors" for hobgoblins make perfect sense.

But Bugbears are the biggest and strongest, while also being sneaky, but they are also lazy.

And many of the shock trooper aspects work (thematically) better with either goblins or Hobgoblins.

Enemies dug into a fortified location? Goblin assassins and archers can sneak in, and leave the place a bloodbath (especially if the enemy is humans without darkvision) while the Hob's hold the siege in front.

Enemy in a tight formation? A flanking maneuver by disciplined soldiers with better formations, or guerrilla attacks from the rear are both devastating

Honestly, Bugbears seem more similar to ogres. Big, strong, and individual instead of working together. But scarier because they are smarter and sneakier than the ogres. The tiger analogy is also really good, but comes back to that same issue. Bugbears make the most sense as working individually, where goblins and hobgoblins both work within large tribes and units.

My current use of them is to make them the soldiers for the Winter Queen of the Fey, removing them from the Goblin equation entirely, maybe have them be the result of a deal between the goblins and the fey. They fit nicely there visually, and thematically in terms of being ambushers who are strong and can stand and fight too.

Idk, a SEAL team is a lot scarier than a single assassin. That’s how I see bugbears. A handful of bugbear hunters can take out every guard in a caravan in moments, and pull the bodies back up into the trees with them without being seen. Terrifying.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Idk, a SEAL team is a lot scarier than a single assassin. That’s how I see bugbears. A handful of bugbear hunters can take out every guard in a caravan in moments, and pull the bodies back up into the trees with them without being seen. Terrifying.

Yes, not exactly seeing how goblins couldn't? I mean, if we are talking just damage numbers, just give them some poison for their bows to get that extra 6 damage, or just have them shoot more than one guard each.

But yeah, that is a terrifying moment, and I love that Bugbears can do that. They just don't fit into any of my conceptions about goblins and how they work.

 

[Minigiant]

I once imagined a Nine World/Yggdrasil like world were ever major humanoid race had their own plane and God in charge of the plane.

• Human plane run by ???
• Elf plane run by Corellon
• Dwarf plane run by Moradin
• Halfling plane run by Yondalla
• Gnome plane run by Garl
• Dragonborn plane by Io
• Orc plane run by Gruumsh
• Goblin plane run by Maglubiyet
• etc

Where each humniod had their own plane and each patron deity kept their race from leaving their home plane. Humaniods would only have to deal with invading fiends and giants at most. Then a Second Age would come when either a higher trickery god, Far Realm being, primordial breaks the seal between the planes. Gods and humaniods can finally travel to and invade other planes. This allows for the different gods and humaniods personalities to finally interact.

How would Gruumsh and orcs be different if they were isolated for millennia?

 

[Tonguez]

Idk, a SEAL team is a lot scarier than a single assassin. That’s how I see bugbears. A handful of bugbear hunters can take out every guard in a caravan in moments, and pull the bodies back up into the trees with them without being seen. Terrifying.

I adapted Bugbears to be Apemen imc and while they are neutral gave them hunting strategies like the Su-monster - they’d hide in trees, then hang down from the branches and grab those passing beneath by the throat/head where they haul them up, tear out throats and then swing off to some other point in the canopy

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Minor thread resurrection. Say I wanted Gruumsh to be worshipped by both orcs and barbarians and such (fury, bloodshed, battle, perseverance). But, I still want Gruumsh to be patron of orcs. And orcs and the barbarians are mortal enemies (think Uthgart from FR). How would you go about this? How could the humans, sworn enemies of the orcs, also pray to the patron of orcs?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Minor thread resurrection. Say I wanted Gruumsh to be worshipped by both orcs and barbarians and such (fury, bloodshed, battle, perseverance). But, I still want Gruumsh to be patron of orcs. And orcs and the barbarians are mortal enemies (think Uthgart from FR). How would you go about this? How could the humans, sworn enemies of the orcs, also pray to the patron of orcs?

My solution would probably be to have Gruumsh encourage competition.

 

[Tonguez]

My solution would probably be to have Gruumsh encourage competition.

Because Gruumsh like Crom cares nothing for those who worship him, only those who Persevere in the Fury of Battle matter, not whining weaklings begging to be healed and bleating about morality

blood is fire so let it burn

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

My solution would probably be to have Gruumsh encourage competition.

Good idea. Thinking a bit more about it, I think one of my problems is, who is then the barbarians' patron? Also Gruumsh?