A kinder, gentler matriarchy?

[Mark]

There's a basic maxim of fiction, more visible today in movies and TV, but also present in written forms - if it isn't there for a purpose, leave it out. You only have so many minutes of screen time, only so many words, you've got to make them count. If you aren't planning to do something specific with it, a major change from audience expectation is merely excess verbiage that serves to confuse the audience. Any time you deviate from audience expectation, the audience will ask why. If you don't have a good answer, you are distracting them from the real meat of your story.

Bye-bye, Bombadil!

The DS9 same-sex kiss makes a good example. Even though it happened to be an expression of emotions relevant to the story, lots of folks came down on them for needlessly putting in a controversial scene.

Something is only a part of a story, if a story is written to a point where something can be made a part. The writers weren't jotting down what was happening somewhere in a real-life as a chronicle, they wrote the story and moved it in that direction intentionally and, assumbly, with purpose. One can only believe that it was something they had in mind when moving the story in that direction.

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A large part of the problem with the lack of stories about women (and women in power, whether benign or malevolent) boils down to who controls the purse strings that allow stories of any kind to be told. Perhaps until recently (and I am not sure of the ratio nor if it has finally shifted) even the majority of female authors wrote/write primarily with a male audience in mind out of a necessity to find a paying outlet for their talent. I'm not saying anything revolutionary or profound here, but it is the crux of the problem stated in the first post if examined in a broader spectrum.

I'd have to also say that I do not believe society's patriarchy has become more benign, merely less overt in its malevolence.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Re: Re: Re: Re: A kinder, gentler matriarchy?

Do they have to? No. But is that the tendency? Yes.

There's a basic maxim of fiction, more visible today in movies and TV, but also present in written forms - if it isn't there for a purpose, leave it out. You only have so many minutes of screen time, only so many words, you've got to make them count. If you aren't planning to do something specific with it, a major change from audience expectation is merely excess verbiage that serves to confuse the audience. Any time you deviate from audience expectation, the audience will ask why. If you don't have a good answer, you are distracting them from the real meat of your story.

hrm. we have different reasons for watching or reading science fiction. Exploring alternate ideas of culture, worldveiw, reality... those are the reasons I'm watching those shows in the first place. I love stories that mainly are there to explore an idea. In fact I think some of the best sci fi ever written is all about exploring an idea and its implications (flowers for algernon is possibly the best short story out there, and the real meat is a deviation from the norm and how its responded to...)

but thats just me... If it won't sell seats in des moines, I'll have to stick to written work, I guess.

Kahuna Burger

 

[Umbran]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A kinder, gentler matriarchy?

hrm. we have different reasons for watching or reading science fiction. Exploring alternate ideas of culture, worldveiw, reality... those are the reasons I'm watching those shows in the first place.

No, I'm note sure we have different reasons. There might be a bit of a communication failure here. You see, exploring a culture, to my mind, qualifies as "doing something with it".

The thing is, in a sense you cannot explore a culture without making political points. In the exploration, you'll inevitably have the reader comparing and contrasting the culture to his or her own. You cannot discuss alternate worldviews and realities without also discussing the one you're in. The question is whether that thought process has any relevance to the rest of the story. You don't want to lead your reader down a path of thought, and then say, "Okay, that was pretty much irrelevant, now back to our story."

 

[Ranger REG]

I think the main problem with Voyager was the fact that a number of seasons ran parallel with DS9, and Voy was merely getting off the ground while it was in direct comparison with later season of DS9. Most people didn't give it much of a chance.

I don't think that is the factor, especially when DS9 aired in the syndication market, while Voyager became the flagship of the then-new network, UPN.

In fact, I would go so far to say that I honestly liked the first three seasons of VOYAGER. It stays true to its series premise. Unfortunately, the premise that parallels Lost in Space begins to look like a nostalgia and wears out.

Between Janeway and Torres, there were two of the strongest female ST characters ever written. People first and women second, which I think put a lot of people off who tuned in initially to watch a powerhouse ship blast its way back home from the edge of the universe (basically how the show was first billed). Couple that with rather weak male characters, by comparison, and I can see how many regular ST fans would turn away.

Come to think of it, that is true. I never did find Chakotay (a former Maquis cell leader), Tuvok (the pillar of Logic), hotshot Paris (a rebel pilot), and Ensign Kim (fresh off the Academy at the start of the series) to be very strong characters. They seems to be "dumbed down."

But if you're looking for a matriarchal society that is kinder and gentler in Star Trek, I believe the Betazed is your top choice.

 

[Endur]

What book examples did you have in mind? I have a hard time thinking of one.

I can think of a couple of possible examples in books, but I'm drawing a blank on tv or movies.
Kahuna burger

 

[Mallus]

I can't think of a single example of quiet matriarchy KB, but I'm certain Ursala K. LeGuin must have wrote about one.. God, what was that quasi-anthropological novel she wrote, the one where she released samples of of her made-up cultures folk music??

Also, there's a {relatively} old SF writer named Jo Clayton, who wrote short, clever, gender interested pulp-ish novels collectively called The Diadem novels. I read some of them, and while they are pretty much action adventures, I think you might some relevent stuff in them.

They are, thanks to Google...

1 - Diadem from the Stars (1977) Jo Clayton
2 - Lamarchos (1978) Jo Clayton
3 - Irsud (1978) Jo Clayton
4 - Maeve (1979) Jo Clayton
5 - Star Hunters (1980) Jo Clayton
6 - The Nowhere Hunt (1981) Jo Clayton
7 - Ghosthunt (1983) Jo Clayton
8 - The Snares of Ibex (1984) Jo Clayton
9 - Quester's Endgame (1986) Jo Clayton

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Re: Re: A kinder, gentler matriarchy?

What book examples did you have in mind? I have a hard time thinking of one.

ugh, the book I'm thinking of was pretty forgettable - something metropolis, kinda a magicpunk setting... Possibly the only reason I remember it is that the main character was a woman, but her relations with men and general social structure struck me as more typical of male protagonists. She faced some class and ethnic difficulties so its harder to be sure - though I distinctly remember her musing about a cliched movie plot where the (female) self trained 'apprentice' saves the city and gets the guy. It was pretty subtle and only really gelled for me in retrospect...

Any others I was thinking of when I wrote that escape my heat adled brain at the moment...

Kahuna burger

 

[mojo1701]

Star Wars Example

Hapes Consortium, maybe?

The King isn't the ruler, but the Queen is. And the prince can't become king unless he marries, but that's always been used.

 

[Tsyr]

Similarly Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar books don't really say there can't be a king, do they? It's really more that the opportunity hadn't arisen.

Actualy, there have been male rulers in Valdemar... Baron Valdemar himself, I think his next heir was a male, Randale, Theran, Co Consort Arden, Roald, and Sendar were all male rulers of Valdemar, and in other countries men seem to be the accepted rulers... Rethwellen and Hardorn, at the least, and until around 1375 AF, Karse was a patriarchy exclusivly.

 

[S'mon]

Best example of a 'Benign Matriarchy' culture I know of is the setting of the 'Halo Jones' comics - a set of 3 'books' from 2000AD, published in the '80s, don't know if you can get them in the USA. The setting is the far future (circa 52nd century), protagonists are all female, there aren't many male characters. Society is female-dominated in a way similar to the way 21st-century western society is male-dominated. A little less, perhaps: although the military is mostly female, a male General is one of the main characters in Book 3.

Book 1 - Halo Jones is unemployed & living off state welfare in The Hoop, a ghetto off Manhattan Island, Earth

Book 2 - Halo is a stewardess on an interstellar liner

Book 3 - Halo is a soldier in a messy colonial war.

Halo Jones is a fantastic comic series for mature-mindset readers, I thoroughly recommend it.