D&D (2024) A Revised Necromancer Subclass?

[Neonchameleon]

You can already build a necro-warlock using various supplements. The undeath patron from Van Richten, there is an invocation in Tasha's they gives animate dead, summon undead and shadow are on the warlock list, etc. But the eldritch blasting, two-spell casting doesn't fit the concept of necromancer for everyone. And it still leaves out white/gray necromancy unexplored. Not every necromancer wants to just raise a family in peace, some want to fight the undead.

Which is why I'm proposing a sorcerer warlock for the rest of them And I think in One D&D the Pact Blade is going to end up as stronger (although requiring more invocations) than the Pact of the Blade.

That said I think there should be a "Universal" school for spells such as Prestidigitation, Unseen Servant, and Mage Armour; these spells aren't actually universal but have enough variants that if you specialise in a school you can use a school based variant.

 

[TwoSix]

I had that Idea, too.
Like, every wizard can learn all level 1 and level 2 spells, but from level 3 on they need to be specialised in that school of magic. Like, let's say, every wizard can pick one specialisation at level 1 and an additional one when he picks a subclass, and maybe a third one at level 11 or so.
Or we could implement a proficiency for schools of magic system for Casters. Like, without proficiency, you can learn level 1 and 2 spells, with proficiency you can learn level 3 to 6 spells and with expertise level 7 to 9 spells from a school of magic. As a Wizwrd you pick a proficiency of one school of magic at level 1 and you gain an additional proficiency at level 3 and later expertise at level 13?.
You could also use feats to earn proficiency and expertise.

An idea I've been floating around for a while is that the wizard doesn't have a spell list; every spell in the game is open to them. But, they don't learn any spells by leveling, any spell they learn has to be discovered in play.

A specialist Wizard could then just be a subclass that automatically learns one spell per level from their chosen specialty.

 

[Neonchameleon]

An idea I've been floating around for a while is that the wizard doesn't have a spell list; every spell in the game is open to them. But, they don't learn any spells by leveling, any spell they learn has to be discovered in play.

A specialist Wizard could then just be a subclass that automatically learns one spell per level from their chosen specialty.

That is very much a DM/worldbuilding option rather than one that can slot in to any campaign.

 

[TwoSix]

That is very much a DM/worldbuilding option rather than one that can slot in to any campaign.

It's literally how D&D used to work; I have every confidence it could work as a standard option.

 

[Neonchameleon]

It's literally how D&D used to work; I have every confidence it could work as a standard option.

Hasn't worked that way in practice in almost 40 years. And doesn't fit with that many players or playstyles

 

[TwoSix]

Hasn't worked that way in practice in almost 40 years. And doesn't fit with that many players or playstyles

I know. I'm perfectly comfortable with making a normative statement that it should.

The "zero-to-hero"/"cultivation" trope is more strongly associated with the wizard than any other class. I'd prefer the game to lean into tropes more than it does. Lower the floor for wizard contributions, and raise the ceiling.

 

[M_Natas]

An idea I've been floating around for a while is that the wizard doesn't have a spell list; every spell in the game is open to them. But, they don't learn any spells by leveling, any spell they learn has to be discovered in play.

A specialist Wizard could then just be a subclass that automatically learns one spell per level from their chosen specialty.

I could live with a mechanic that let's wizard players research spells for Gold/Time. Like not as automatic as it is now but still in the hands of the players.

 

[tetrasodium]

It would be an overhaul of the whole wizard class.

It would but, the post above that one you quoted is literally about how a warlock can pull off a necromancer build. The suggestion seems like dramatically nerfing the one class identity wotc thinks wizard has & then give some of it back along with a bit of what warlock has. That's a big problem because there are already multiple arcane classes sharing the vast majority of the spell list on top of the kinds of features & choices that you note.

Now that the base design is weaker, the subclasses can make up for it, so the wizard subclass need to be stronger and can get more mechanical and theme fitting powers.
You can have a necromancer wizard, who gains necromancer spells (of course there need to be more of those) and for example an undead familiar and a choice between a frankenstein like big creature pet that he can adapt with different body parts or a zombie/skeleton hord (one stablock like a swarm statblock) that scales with level and then some other necromanctic abilities. Like, I don't know, I'm just spitballing here: For the theme of life and dead a Necromancy Wizards gets 1d8 instead of 1d6, and get healing spells, but in order to use healing spells he has to pay in hit points (or take hit points from a willing donor).
So we weaken the base class of the wizard, make him less versatile with his spell selection and now we have design space in the subclasses to do cool stuff.

"Theme fitting powers" is a problem because it sounds a lot like you are just redesigning wizard into a full progression warlock... except most of the wizard archetypes other than necromancer are not things that lend themselves well to the warlock mold and of course the fact that warlock is already and still a full progression caster last we saw. The wizard's theme as far as wotc is concerned is it's spell list, for that reasonre designing the wizard into fitting a warlock mold unless some combination of warlock's spellcasting+EB+bladelock abilities are also spun down like you are suggesting be done for wizard spell selection.

 

[tetrasodium]

I know. I'm perfectly comfortable with making a normative statement that it should.

The "zero-to-hero"/"cultivation" trope is more strongly associated with the wizard than any other class. I'd prefer the game to lean into tropes more than it does. Lower the floor for wizard contributions, and raise the ceiling.

Agreed. I'd much rather see wizard go back to some of their past tropes & themes than some of the half warlock type suggestions getting floated. Unfortunately 5e spell designdoes a lot to make that a difficult thing to swing functionally

 

[M_Natas]

It would but, the post above that one you quoted is literally about how a warlock can pull off a necromancer build. The suggestion seems like dramatically nerfing the one class identity wotc thinks wizard has & then give some of it back along with a bit of what warlock has. That's a big problem because there are already multiple arcane classes sharing the vast majority of the spell list on top of the kinds of features & choices that you note.

"Theme fitting powers" is a problem because it sounds a lot like you are just redesigning wizard into a full progression warlock... except most of the wizard archetypes other than necromancer are not things that lend themselves well to the warlock mold and of course the fact that warlock is already and still a full progression caster last we saw. The wizard's theme as far as wotc is concerned is it's spell list, for that reasonre designing the wizard into fitting a warlock mold unless some combination of warlock's spellcasting+EB+bladelock abilities are also spun down like you are suggesting be done for wizard spell selection.

The Warlock can be a subclass of the wizard that doesn't get expertise or proficienies in schools of magic, but invocations . He doesn't learn, he bargains with demons for powers, he takes shortcuts to powers. Every Invocation is a bargain to get a specific power while a wizard specialises in a field an can research and learn all spells from a specific school of magic.
There can also be the General Studies Wizard, like the default wizard who gets proficiency in more schools of magic than other classes, but not expertise. So he had a wider array of spells up to level 6 and can maybe swapped damage like the order of the scribe, but to get the big level 7 to 9 magic spells, you need to specialise.

In my head I'm redesigning 5e to create a completely new RPG ^^.
If I ever win the lottery, I will pursue it full time and make my own 5e hack-RPG .