D&D 5E A simple houserule for martial/caster balance.

Rogerd1

Adventurer
It would be nice to give the non magical characters the ability to cleave through stone walls, rip apart plate armor with their bare hands, run up castle walls, and leap a hundred feet in the air to smack a passing dragon, but believe you me, there are many players who would gnash their teeth and stomp their feet at the idea of their "everyman Fighter" being turned into a "cartoon character".

Never no mind the fact that legendary heroes in real world myths do this sort of thing all the time. No swimming up a waterfall or making whole armies run in feat of you for you, Mr. Fighter man! Now get over there and pretend to be a threat to that 50' long magical fire lizard while I cast a trivial spell to do everything you cant!

Fighter: it's a fair cop.
Tell me about it, but I will never understand this mentality though.
Some players are happy that their mages can hurl fireballs, teleport, and other abilities.

I am okay with a fighter being as strong as Sif from MCU, I think that would work really well such that they can literally rag doll some monsters at higher levels and won't get turned into pink jello when smacked by a dragon.

The mage on the other hand will require some defensive magic not to be pulped.
 

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FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Still much rather build martials up than tear casters down.

Also remove wizards from the game.

Not ban. Remove so there's no niche protection or design bias around them ever again.

If you agree this is mostly balanced it becomes a good starting point for balancing martials with casters by adding to both.
 

ECMO3

Hero
If I recall. The issues with the warrior/expert/spellcaster "balance" was never the high level spells themselves. It was few low level magic became ineffective and inefficient to deal with major obstacles and meaningful combat so they are retooled to be all used for low level utility and outshine nonspellcasting solutions regularly.
I am not sure exactly what you mean, can you give me examples.
 

ECMO3

Hero
Simply cap spells known to 4th level or less (maybe 5th level or less). Casters can keep the slots.

Thoughts?

Possibly create magical items that allow casters access to higher level spells for atunement and sufficient class level.
I think I would rather just ban martials.

Between Wizards, Bards, Clerics, Druids, races, backgrounds and feats you really have everything covered that a party is ever going to need.
 

ECMO3

Hero
That's because any time you attempt to limit the powers of the Wizard, people complain that "the Wizard doesn't feel magical". Often some of the same people who demand that the Fighter be "ordinary dude in extraordinary situation" insist that "Wizards be all powerful reality warpers able to cast every spell ever printed". It doesn't matter how many spells you make, someone will be like "but where's Snilloc's Cream Pie?".

I definitely agree with the part in Red.

As a larger conversation I think Fighters should be weapons experts and proficient in every weapon and armor, any one, not just those in the PHB. If they come apart a catapult or a Ram or a laser rifle from a crashed spaceship they should be proficient or for something completely alien (like the laser rifle) should be able to become proficient by studying it for 10 minutes. They should also be able to use all magic weapons and armor - staff of magi, staff of python, whatever at long as it is a weapon or armor. They know weapons. Other martials should not get these abilities. They are automatically proficient in any intelligence or wisdom check regarding weapons or armor.

A Wizard should be the mirror of this when it comes to magic. A wizard should be able to learn ANY spell regardless of where it comes from. If it is a Warlock or Cleric spell solely granted by gods or demigods the Wizard has figured out how to tap into that line of the Weave and siphon it off for their own use. A Wizard should be able to use ANY magic item. Similarly if they come across a magic holy item from a deity the Wizard has figured out how to "fake it" and steal that Deities magic. They are automatically proficient in any intelligence or wisdom check regarding magic or magic items.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
The Wizard is problematic as a class. Way too flexible, too powerful, and WOTC seems to bend over backward to please its die hard fan who want it to be the most powerful class. It casts a negative shadow over the entire game.
No "seems to" about it. Heinsoo explicitly said that that's what people were (likely subconsciously) doing during 4e's design. He pushed back against it, and admitted he might have erred on the side of caution with it. And guess what, it roared back to life with 5e.

Wizards are made to be the best class. The designers don't intend for it to be that way, but piles of small choices, little issues, keep pushing it that direction. And the Wizard's rising tide carries the other full casters with it.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
Wow, this thread started a few days ago and I am just seeing it? Anyway...

Simply cap spells known to 4th level or less (maybe 5th level or less). Casters can keep the slots.

Thoughts?
Sounds good. We capped them at 7th, but slowed down spell progression so you don't even get 6th level spells until 16th level and 7th at 19th level.

EDIT: FWIW, I am a huge fan of Wizards, think they made magic too easy and too common, and THAT makes it feel less magical. So, for anyone who thinks wizard-fans would universally oppose nerfing the wizard--you're dead wrong.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
EDIT: FWIW, I am a huge fan of Wizards, think they made magic too easy and too common, and THAT makes it feel less magical. So, for anyone who thinks wizard-fans would universally oppose nerfing the wizard--you're dead wrong.
It may not be universal, but you are (at the very least) not represented well in those who advocate for it or respond to customer surveys. Both WotC and Paizo have had issues with this, and get enormous, vocal pushback any time they touch this area.

Consider, for example, the proposed "class feature variants" rule that let Sorcerers change out a single spell sometimes (I thing once per long rest?) The Wizard community was up in arms about how this was horrifically broken and would destroy the Wizard class and make the Sorcerer "just a better Wizard" etc. etc. To the point that we literally had a thread on this very forum titled, and I am not joking, "Spell Versatility is GONE. Rejoice!"

The Wizard partisans who want UNLIMITED COSMIC POWER!!! exist. And they're a hell of a lot more vocal than the Wizard fans who want them relatively restrained.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
It may not be universal, but you are (at the very least) not represented well in those who advocate for it or respond to customer surveys. Both WotC and Paizo have had issues with this, and get enormous, vocal pushback any time they touch this area.
Oh, I know, I am just tired of hearing about only wizard-haters who want to nerf them or ban them.

I've posted a number of times about bridging the gap between casters and martials, and for me nerfing casters is a very viable solution since I prefer a lower-powered game myself.

Consider, for example, the proposed "class feature variants" rule that let Sorcerers change out a single spell sometimes (I thing once per long rest?) The Wizard community was up in arms about how this was horrifically broken and would destroy the Wizard class and make the Sorcerer "just a better Wizard" etc. etc. To the point that we literally had a thread on this very forum titled, and I am not joking, "Spell Versatility is GONE. Rejoice!"
LOL, yeah I remember that! Here was my first post on it:

DING-DONG the rule is dead!
It's been removed! Not in the book!
DING-DONG the horrible rule is gone!


:D

Yeah, Spell Versatility was never going to see the light of day at our tables. We all thought it was pretty bad. :p

I won't get into it again, but yeah I thought it was a bad rule. I don't think it would make Sorcerers better than Wizards or destroy their class, but I don't see a need to cover that again.

The Wizard partisans who want UNLIMITED COSMIC POWER!!! exist. And they're a hell of a lot more vocal than the Wizard fans who want them relatively restrained.
True, ever nerf rule I make for them gets two typical responses:

1. Just ban wizards
2. You can't take away my toys!

So, as far as the OP is concerned, we toyed with limiting casters to 5th level spells, but ultimately went to 7th level since access is so delayed and limited. Even lower level spells are delayed:

Level 1 - 1st
Level 4 - 2nd
Level 7 - 3rd
Level 10 - 4th
Level 13 - 5th
Level 16 - 6th
Level 19 - 7th

And even when I represented that, I got backlash about not allowing 3rd-5th level spells until later levels. 🤷‍♂️
 

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