A Simpler 3rd Edition

[reanjr]

I'm very interested in hearing more about Reanjr's system, and how it helps to simplify the game and speed up play.

I also started a similiar thread on ENWorld in the general forum called "I hate math". This discussion inspired me to do extensive research around combat in third edition, including charting out over 900 class, skill, feat, spell, magic item, and tactical modifier that can influence combat. From this list, I began to break down those things that were redundant or confusing. It ended up being a pretty short list, but siginficant improvement in the speed of play.

If this is the kind of thing you're interested in, I'd be happy to share my ideas. Particularly if someone would be willing to help evalutate the recommendations and their effectiveness.

Alrighty. Anything in particular?

The movement and positioning system is not detailed anywhere and is very lengthy to explain without diagrams, but really easy to use. Basically picture a few circles within a larger circle. There are more of these larger circles with small circles... nevermind; it's just going to sound really complicated.

But, just trust me, once I get some diagrams up it will make sense. And you never have to keep track of where characters are. Just who they are near. If you have ever played the SAGA system (Dragonlance 5th age or Marvel Superheroes or whatever the comic book game was called), the positioning is very much inspired by that. So is the magic system, come to think of it.

Attacks of Opportunity, while I currently have difficulties in overall implementation, are much rarer and easier to adjudicate (as soon as I figure out how they work ). They only come up in specially defined actions, so you just don't think about them in game play until you perform one of those actions.

While I haven't fully detailed it yet, armor will be damage reduction rather than AC. This has the benefit of the attacker being able to easily determine whether they hit or not without going through the "I rolled a 18! Do I hit?" type of thing. This system han't been fully worked out yet, but I would like it to model Alternity in feel, if not implementation. This little speed up seems to help immensely.

The spell system helps immensely. With fewer actual spells, it's easy to pick out the spell you want to cast and then look at that one spell to determine its options (every spell can be cast in numerous ways for added power; think metamagic, except more tailored to the specific spell). I currently have only detailed two spells (sleep and burning hands), but I am very happy with how both of them turned out. Sleep actually doubles for Nightmare and several other spells. Burning Hands is your generic fire spell. It can be used to affect close enemies (or a single enemy), distant enemies, small damage, big damage, ignore allies, etc. The saves for spells are all the same DC unless you "metamagic" (not metamgic, but you get the idea) them up. Sleep is no longer useless late in your career (woohoo!).

While I can't say that I did extensive analysis of the D20 system, I feel I have a pretty good gut feeling about these types of things.

Maybe telling you my current difficulties will better illustrate the system. If you have any questions about how everything works, feel free to ask.

Difficulty #1:
XP costs. This is the most complicated part of the system. Tables simplify it somewhat, but purchasing a new ability can take a moment to reference the cost. The upshot is that since this is a non-level based system, usually you are only getting one or two abilities at a time, when you collect experience. You're also getting something every session and not waiting for a level to improve your character. Anyway, there are two types of abilities: Attributes and Feats. Feats are static cost abilities, while attributes can be increased. Feat cost is, of course, pretty easy. If it says 500, it costs 500 XP to learn the Feat.

Attributes have a Bias. What you do is you add the Bias to the score you are attaining. For instance, if you have an Intelligence of 10 and would like to increase it to 11, you add the ability score Bias of 10 (this can be found next to Intelligence on the character sheet). 11+10=21. You look over at the Attribute Cost table, and look up 21, which has a 441 next to it. So it costs 441 XP to increase your Intelligence to 21. This isn't so bad.

What IS bad is on character creation, when you are given a specific allotment of XP to spend to create your character, you have to add up the XP cost to get a 1 plus the XP cost to get a 2, etc. to find out how to start with an 11. While I have summarized this cumulative total on the Attribute Cost table (also on the character sheet), you must remember to cross reference 21 and subtract the value listed at 10 (because you don't have to pay for the Bias portion of the cost).

Difficulty #2:
CR. CR is a wonderful tool in D&D. But my system just can't use anything like it. Without having levels or sets of abilities (classes) judging the challenge of an NPC ahead of time is more art than science. I have strived to keep overall character advancement somewhat in line with D&D, but this cannot be perfect.

The main benefit I see of keeping it in line is that you can take D20 stuff and drop it into the game with minimal fuss (converting creatures usually isn't too much of a problem).

The following info will tell you all about the system. Unfortunately it is written in flow-of-though form. Some of it isn't grammatically correct, or even complete. It was more like a set of notes I took while I was brainstorming. But it should give you a really good idea of the various rules (however rough). Look for the posts titled "I've finally cracked" (you'll have to click on Next Page once to get to it, and Simplified System.

http://reanjr.net/index.php?blog=5

 

[Li Shenron]

Maybe I should mention that the system does away with levels, too... So you only choose one option at a time

...

Removing multiclassing, while making things simpler, just wouldn't be a very "fun" choice.

...

Again, this is railroading your character's development.

Mah, I think the point of the thread starter was to make things easier. I really think that the more choices, the more fun the game, so it it was for me I would actually increase complexity instead of lowering it. But the starter asked for ideas to make it more simple if I understand the thread's aim, and I think that a feature-based system is not simple for the players, such a fine-tune system is kind of going to the opposite direction...

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'm considering some potential changes for a future campaign of Eberron (or a conversion of my sci-fi rpg). I won't go into the detail now, but some of the basics are

1) No AoO (in other threads I've explained how I'll handle reach, prohibited activities etc)

2) Everyone gets 2 actions a round, which can be used for some combination of move, attack and parry. You don't get more attacks from high BAB or feats

There are implications from both of these things on a variety of issues (combat actions, feats, spells) and I'm still working through the implications of these.

 

[Li Shenron]

2) Everyone gets 2 actions a round, which can be used for some combination of move, attack and parry. You don't get more attacks from high BAB or feats

There are implications from both of these things on a variety of issues (combat actions, feats, spells) and I'm still working through the implications of these.

I was thinking about what LV previously wrote about using 1st edition combat. 3rd edition combat is based on the standard+move turn, which is nice in its own way, but also could have some not-so-nice side effects: first and foremost, if characters get more actions in their turn, combat goes definitely less smooth compared to how it would be if they got only 1 action.

Therefore I'd like to ask if this idea you're working on will be simply that on your turn you get 2 actions just as in the core rules (except that it is different than standard+move), or if you meant to give those 2 actions at different initiative points, so that you do your first action, then someone else can act, then again later in the same round you get the second action.
In a way this would be like having turns of 1 action only, but it could be more complicated if your 1st action would determine how soon you are going to get the second action.

I think this kind of idea would deserve a thread on its own, because it is actually quite complicated!

 

[Angel Tarragon]

There is already a classless DnD system. It is done by Red Leaf Games.

Right click the following links and select 'save as' to download the system in two parts:

D(liberation)20 - Classless Charaters
D(liberation)20 - Magefire

 

[Lord Vangarel]

Ok, thanks for all the input guys here's an update on how my thoughts are going on this.

Feats - disappear completly from the game. Some become class abilities. Feats that are Improved (something) will be replaced by a negative modifier on the roll to avoid an AoO if the feat allowed this.

Skills - All skill checks are essentially 1d20+class level+modifiers where the modifiers are attribute based. There are no class skills although some skills will remain exclusive to classes. Some classes such as the Rogue and Bard gain bonus points to spend on skills as they progress in levels. All characters get a small number of bonus points to spend (1-2) each level on any skill to improve their chances of success.

Classes - The Fighter will undergo major surgery with alot of the feats that would have been available becoming options as they progress in levels. Spellcasters have automatic access to item creation and metamagic abilities as they progress in levels. The barbarian class is dropped and becomes a template that is attached to other character choices. As mentioned in Skills above the Rogue and some other classes get bonus points at various levels to represent their greater skill in these areas.

Combat - each round each combatant takes one turn in order of Initiative until no combatants have actions remaining. An normal action can be up to half your movement rate and an attack. For example if a fighter (move 30) is facing an orc 15-ft away the fighter can move and attack the orc as one action. If the orc was 25-ft away for example the fighter couldn't reach the orc on his first action and this would have to occur on his second action. Some combat actions such as Charge double the movement allowed in one action but would then not allow further actions for the round. Multiple attacks only occur for fighter type characters and are staggered at various levels with the overall effect of less iterative attacks at higher levels. To compensate this all attacks are at the maximum attack bonus (which nicely removes an element of working things out - I know its only -5 per extra attack).

Multi-classing - a player can elect to multi-class at the beginning of their career and could for example be a fighter/cleric. This gives them an initial advantage at 1st level but their experience is forever divided between the two classes equally. When determining their character level the two lots of experience are added together. Using this method a character would be one level behind a single classed equivalent until around 11th level when the gap would become wider assuming both had equal experience.


The overall aim is to create a game where character creation is easier (especially for the DM with npc's), combat will be faster and easier to balance in your mind when a character or creature doesn't get to do everything at once, and the spellcaster multi-classing penalty of 3E disappears so we have multi-classed spellcasters once more.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

Multi-classing - a player can elect to multi-class at the beginning of their career and could for example be a fighter/cleric. This gives them an initial advantage at 1st level but their experience is forever divided between the two classes equally. When determining their character level the two lots of experience are added together. Using this method a character would be one level behind a single classed equivalent until around 11th level when the gap would become wider assuming both had equal experience.

This is essentially the Gestalt option from Unearthed Arcana. You just take the best of the best from the two classes and combine this skill lists and thats that.

 

[wedgeski]

I think you're taking somewhat of a reactionary standpoint. What is wrong with making it not D&D? If you're changing rules, you're changing rules. Why stop because of some preconceived notion of what you are going for?

Well, because my preconceived notion is 'D&D', not 'an RPG that smells like D&D but really isn't'. The OP wasn't talking about inventing a new RPG, he was talking about simplifying 3ed.

I think it was one of the greatest achievements of the 3ed designers to introduce so many new mechanics and yet come up with a game that still felt, to me at least, like the game I'd been playing for twenty years. The class-based system is one fundamental of that, and I hope no game with 'D&D' on the cover ever loses it, even at the same time that I will experiment with other, classless systems as well. Otherwise, the name 'D&D' just becomes a marketing hook with less and less basis in the actual rules. JMO.

 

[DungeonmasterCal]

Remove the classes.

Class abilities for the most part can become feats. Not all feats would cost the same.

Move to a raw XP ability buy system.

Most rules can stay the same.

Take similar spells and group them into a single one that can be cast at differing levels of power.

Simplify movement and positioning. Make it so that it doesn't matter where you are, but who you are near.

Remove Attacks of Opportunity for movement; leave them for certain special actions, such as casting a spell.

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Is this still D&D?

I'm working on a system like this right now. There's alot of other changes, too, but them's the hilights.

[edit The system itself, under the minimal playtesting it has received, but extensive mathmatical analysis, is much simpler and quicker to play with, but character creation seems to be quite a bit longer. It may be due to inexperience, though. Time will tell.

YEAH, baby, YEAH!

 

[Liquidsabre]

Hey isn't D&D basic out now? Just use that aye for a simpler D&D.