A "What if you're stuck with Golden Wyvern?" thread

[Commonblade]

Based on limited info. I would treat it just like different forms of martial arts. Only this is different forms of Mystic Arts. My Golden Wyvern style is superior to your Serpent's Eye!

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I think the problem in question is that chances are that these orders are going to suddenly start existing in every published D&D campaign world.

Really? Can you find me Tenser or Bigby in Eberron or the Forgotten Realms?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I don't even use words like "fighter" and "cleric" at the table. I'm confident I'll be able to avoid "Yellow Snow Adept" or whatever.

But if I was actually going to incorporate them, I suppose I'd be using them in a sense similar to martial arts schools: You don't have to be a member of the Wu Tang clan--of even trained by a clan member--to know a few attacks in the Wu Tang style, since many of their secrets might have spread through the martial arts world. There's a good chance that it does say something about your actual training background if the majority of your moves are Wu-Tang-derived, though.

Exactly how I'd handle it.

Mostly, though, the names will be used at the table only to identify them in the core books. IMC, they'll either be open to everyone or will be assigned to my own pre-existing campaign groups.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think the problem in question is that chances are that these orders are going to suddenly start existing in every published D&D campaign world.

One could also handle it as a "meta-name". There are several physical laws or examples that are referred to by a famous mathematician that formulated it first (or at least more prominently).

"Focaults pendulum", "Newtonian Mechanics", "Einsteins Relativity Theory".

2 interpretations are now possible
1) There was a Gold Wyvern order in most campaign settings. It died out decades ago, but some of their members where famous for a certain metamagic technique. They were able to establish their own name for it. Basically, they take the role of a mathematician or scientist who published a law he figured out and has died out.

2) In our "default setting", there is a "Golden Wyvern" order. They developed a magical theory that allowed people to shape their spells. In their honor, the technique is still called "Golden Wyvern Technique" and anyone using it is considered an Adapt of it.
If we switch our setting, we would want to change the in-game name also. But we still refer to it via the "Golden Wyvern" term in mechanics, just as we would also say that an alternate Universe follows Newtonian Physics...
Since D&D sometimes implies a "Multiverse", in where all possible Campaign Setting exist in, this would work pretty well. High Level planar travellers of the Golden Wyvern order might have visited other planes and showed off their technique (intentionally or not) and other people picked this up.

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Even 3.x (and I guess previous editions also) had a few fixed "fluff" names - Draconic, Celestial, Infernal, Abyssal, Terran or Common. The names sound pretty generic, but they still imply that every setting has these languages (since the names are part of the Speak Language skill description). IIRC, it even goes so far and explains which alphabet each one uses and which are shared.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

One could also handle it as a "meta-name". There are several physical laws or examples that are referred to by a famous mathematician that formulated it first (or at least more prominently).

"Focaults pendulum", "Newtonian Mechanics", "Einsteins Relativity Theory".

2 interpretations are now possible
1) There was a Gold Wyvern order in most campaign settings. It died out decades ago, but some of their members where famous for a certain metamagic technique. They were able to establish their own name for it. Basically, they take the role of a mathematician or scientist who published a law he figured out and has died out.

This is also a good option. And arcane spellcasters being who they are, the now-defunct wizardly orders can be so obscure (compared to the homebrew groups the DM creates) that only spellcasters have ever heard of them.

 

[Commonblade]

One could also handle it as a "meta-name". There are several physical laws or examples that are referred to by a famous mathematician that formulated it first (or at least more prominently).

"Focaults pendulum", "Newtonian Mechanics", "Einsteins Relativity Theory".

2 interpretations are now possible
1) There was a Gold Wyvern order in most campaign settings. It died out decades ago, but some of their members where famous for a certain metamagic technique. They were able to establish their own name for it. Basically, they take the role of a mathematician or scientist who published a law he figured out and has died out.

2) In our "default setting", there is a "Golden Wyvern" order. They developed a magical theory that allowed people to shape their spells. In their honor, the technique is still called "Golden Wyvern Technique" and anyone using it is considered an Adapt of it.
If we switch our setting, we would want to change the in-game name also. But we still refer to it via the "Golden Wyvern" term in mechanics, just as we would also say that an alternate Universe follows Newtonian Physics...
Since D&D sometimes implies a "Multiverse", in where all possible Campaign Setting exist in, this would work pretty well. High Level planar travellers of the Golden Wyvern order might have visited other planes and showed off their technique (intentionally or not) and other people picked this up.

---

Even 3.x (and I guess previous editions also) had a few fixed "fluff" names - Draconic, Celestial, Infernal, Abyssal, Terran or Common. The names sound pretty generic, but they still imply that every setting has these languages (since the names are part of the Speak Language skill description). IIRC, it even goes so far and explains which alphabet each one uses and which are shared.

Options three: (Like Einsteins Relativity Theory!) Golden Wyvern is the name of the Dragonborn in the lost ancient empire that developed this technique.

 

[Pbartender]

One could also handle it as a "meta-name". There are several physical laws or examples that are referred to by a famous mathematician that formulated it first (or at least more prominently).

"Focaults pendulum", "Newtonian Mechanics", "Einsteins Relativity Theory".

2 interpretations are now possible
1) There was a Gold Wyvern order in most campaign settings. It died out decades ago, but some of their members where famous for a certain metamagic technique. They were able to establish their own name for it. Basically, they take the role of a mathematician or scientist who published a law he figured out and has died out.

This is almost exactly how i would handle it... Toss those names into the same basket as "Mordenkainen's Lucubration" and "The Apparatus of Kwalish" and such. The technique is named after a particular wizard, sorcerer or school from ancient history that originally developed and taught that technique.

Don't forget The Princess Bride...

Inigo Montoya: You are using Bonetti's Defense against me, ah?
Man in Black: I thought it fitting considering the rocky terrain.
Inigo Montoya: Naturally, you must suspect me to attack with Capa Ferro?
Man in Black: Naturally... but I find that Thibault cancels out Capa Ferro. Don't you?
Inigo Montoya: Unless the enemy has studied his Agrippa... which I have.

...now imagine that Bonetti's Defense, Capa Ferro (I know that's a fellow's name, but it also loosely translates to "Iron Chief"), Thibault and Agrippa are all names of feats -- or common descriptor of a series of feats, such as Agrippa's Strike, Agrippa's Riposte, Agrippa's Gripper, Agrippa's Floating Butterfly, Agrippa's Stinging Bee, and so forth.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

This is almost exactly how i would handle it... Toss those names into the same basket as "Mordenkainen's Lucubration" and "The Apparatus of Kwalish" and such. The technique is named after a particular wizard, sorcerer or school from ancient history that originally developed and taught that technique.

Don't forget The Princess Bride...

Inigo Montoya: You are using Bonetti's Defense against me, ah?
Man in Black: I thought it fitting considering the rocky terrain.
Inigo Montoya: Naturally, you must suspect me to attack with Capa Ferro?
Man in Black: Naturally... but I find that Thibault cancels out Capa Ferro. Don't you?
Inigo Montoya: Unless the enemy has studied his Agrippa... which I have.

...now imagine that Bonetti's Defense, Capa Ferro (I know that's a fellow's name, but it also loosely translates to "Iron Chief"), Thibault and Agrippa are all names of feats -- or common descriptor of a series of feats, such as Agrippa's Strike, Agrippa's Riposte, Agrippa's Gripper, Agrippa's Floating Butterfly, Agrippa's Stinging Bee, and so forth.

You know, now my real hope is that all maneuvers, feats and talents get such names, so people can refer to them _in-game_. If you don't give these things "flavoured" names in the core rulebook, nobody might ever do it.

I mean, after 8 years or so of D&D 3rd edition, could you imagine playing in a setting where "Cleave" was refered to as "Cajutos Cleaving Strike" and might actually be referred to as such within the setting? Or someone saying "I learned Mandrosis Deadly Blow from my first trainer" (refering to Power Attack)?
Maybe, after a few months or years playing D&D 4, we will get accustomed to that - and newcomers to the game will immediately pick it up!".

There could even be a mechanics (based on your Knowledge (Strategy and Tactics)) skill that allow you to identify certain maneuvers/feats/talents. And if you wanted, you could really create a kind of stone-paper-scissor subsystem for it (though be careful with that one, it could become a bit to "gamist" - or unbalanced)

If that means I have to write new fluffy names for each of my homebrew, so be it. But at least, I am certainly reminded I actually could do it...

We'll see if it actually comes to that...

 

[billd91]

Really? Can you find me Tenser or Bigby in Eberron or the Forgotten Realms?

Since the spells bear their names, presumably there was one... but clearly not the same one as in Greyhawk and, just as clearly, not one with the same significance. Just some faceless guys in the past who managed to come up with some interesting spells. The details of their lives are relatively insignificant.

 

[Pbartender]

Since the spells bear their names, presumably there was one... but clearly not the same one as in Greyhawk and, just as clearly, not one with the same significance. Just some faceless guys in the past who managed to come up with some interesting spells. The details of their lives are relatively insignificant.

I think that's the point Whizbang was trying to make... Despite having spells named after them, the actual wizards the spells are named after were never really detailed in most campaigns.