D&D 5E Ability Score Balance: through the eyes of fresh players

[dave2008]

Because that’s the character. He isn’t bad at withstanding mental attacks, he just isn’t socially/emotionally intelligent and doesn’t care that what he is doing might be very dangerous. He heals Sahuagin on the off chance he can convince them that their defeat was a result of the treachery of a common enemy. He makes jokes in conversation with a Medusa crime lord.

He also goes against his own ethics sometimes in the heat of the moment, and if I had to pick one song to show his attitude toward life it would be What’s Up Danger from the Into The Spiderverse soundtrack.

So, because of how the mechanics of fifth edition work, he has more room to grow in terms of these traits by having an OK wisdom but no training in anything wisdom related.

The beauty of D&D, everyone has their own wonderful way of playing!

 

[DEFCON 1]

Let me stop you right there. I noted in my post that I was jumping in about the specific point. I have no idea what the rest of the argument was, please don't lump me in with other people as I had no greater argument or question.

But I quoted you! And that means that... that means... it means that you... or at least your statement... uh... you get lumped in when I... when... um...

Okay, so * if * I lump you in... then... uh... well, you see, BY lumping you in, ipso facto, it results in... uh... there's a lump, see... and the lump means... it means you, * and * other people, all of you... are lumped. Together. And because of that... because... of... that... you... um... uh...

Uh...

LOOK, DAVE! JUST KNOW THERE'S A LUMP AND YOU'RE IN IT! AND THE LUMP IS IMPORTANT! DON'T DENY THE LUMP, DAVE!

Oh, and Happy Easter.

Assuming you celebrate it. Which you might not. So I lumped you into that one too.

All this lumping.

 

[Ratskinner]

I've thought for a long time that ability scores should be dumped. Wrap the relevant bonuses into classes and keep quirks around within the class and race to differentiate its members, but not affect their combat stats. Quirks would be sub-listed/restricted for each class, background, race. For example, all Fighters would have a base amount of athleticism, but only some would take the "Man-Mountain" quirk that gives them super-high strength (even if it doesn't affect their combat stats). Wizards, on the other hand, would only have access to the basic "Athletic" quirk. Multiclassing could be limited by those quirks (i.e. you must have the "Clever" or "Brainy" quirk in order to MC into a Wizard), and you don't get to pick new quirks when multiclassing.

 

[dave2008]

I've thought for a long time that ability scores should be dumped. Wrap the relevant bonuses into classes and keep quirks around within the class and race to differentiate its members, but not affect their combat stats.

I don't agree with dumping stats, but I could see getting a bonus from your class.

 

[DND_Reborn]

{snip}

12 is actually the lowest Con scores I've seen in a game before.

So, I've posted already, but this is just to summarize based on your OP.

I've never seen a CON below 12 in 5E either due to the tie into HP.

It has me, yet again, for my homebrewed houserules (this game is by the book, unless the ranger wants to go beastmaster, then I'll offer beast of air or earth) thinking about how to change Constitution and possibly nerfing Dex.

Constitution is a tough one. I don't think Constitution is too good. The trouble is that it's good for everyone, and it feels important to everyone. It might be possible to adjust Constitution, taking away it's +HP/level but making it so HD recover entirely on a long rest (and have HD still apply Constitution modifier). This way, high Con characters would recover faster, but they wouldn't necessarily be tougher than others.

I think this is a good idea and I might use something similar in the future. Now, would you tie anything into HP since your would be removing CON, or just play with fewer HP?

If you want some bonus to HP, I have several suggestions:

• Add up the total modifiers for ability scores as an initial bonus at level 1. If a modifier increases or decreases, so do HP.
• Allow PCs to add their maximum ability score modifier at each level.
• Add half proficiency bonus (round up) with each level. Full proficiency is too much IMO, but you might want that?

For Strength vs Dexterity, I think they can be brought more to balance if Finesse weapons only applied Dex to hit and ranged weapons used Str to damage still (except the crossbow). Perhaps using the variant carrying capacity more would help too, as the carrying capacity for 8 Str makes even light armor pretty encumbering.

I've mentioned this before, but to address your ideas specifically, I think moving in this direction is also good. Some people will complain about nerfing DEX, but that is only because we all know DEX is too strong in the first place. So, I don't see this as nerfing it more than bringing it back into line with the other scores.

We have already moved to damage comes from STR only. The sole exception for this is the Monk class using unarmed strikes and monk weapons. We also don't add STR to loading weapons. And we use variant encumbrance and strictly enforce it. I think you will find making such changes are very balancing.

Now, it is partially class choice, as only one chose a class that prioritizes Str, but I just found it particularly interesting that no one put 10s or 12s in Str (everyone used Standard Array).

When using the Standard Array, you are forced to use the 8 someplace. As you know and others have noted STR, INT, and CHA are the easy choices. They are weak saves (uncommon) and have little impact on combat for the classes that dump there. My best suggestion there is to replace the 15 in the standard array with a 14, and the 8 becomes a 10.

Personally, I am more apt to dump a low score in CHA than anyplace else.

Anyway, I hope all the replies have helped. I think you are moving in the right direction.

 

[Flamestrike]

Further, even Int 8 outlander barbarians know things, even about history, religion, and magic. This is already mechanically reflected by their -1 penalty. No need to gild the lily. They are entitled to make Int checks like any other character.

The DM determines when you can make a check, not the player.

If I felt that a character was acting in a way that was out of sync with their stats, rather than find a ruler to rap their knuckles with, I would start by either making an observation "The outlander seems very astute today..." or ask a question. "Where might you have come across information like this?" This gives the player a chance to do a course-correction or fill in the gaps with a little more role-playing.

I agree. This is where I would start as well. And then, I'd hand out inspiration when he starts role-playing his character as dimwitted.

 

[Flamestrike]

Oh, I'm not suggesting that they can probably do better in melee, but in situations where melee isn't an option (flying or hard to reach opponents) or inadvisable (breaking formation to run into a mob alone), your bow is still better than calling names. Its better than many other classes' at-will damage over most of their adventuring career.

It's really not.

 

[FrogReaver]

Just so it's clear - the concept that buffing a stat like Intelligence to make it more competitive for Fighters to not dump has a disproportionate effect of buffing the wizard.

In general, you cannot buff a stat without also greatly buffing the class that uses it as a primary (or secondary agility). Nor can you nerf a stat without causing the opposite effect.

So my problem with these stat changes is that no one believes wizards are a bad class - and yet everything that you want to do with Int to make it more competitive for fighters not to dump is a straight up buff for the wizard. Anything you want to do with Str to make Wizards want to take it is a straight up buff for Paladins (one of the strongest classes according to EnWorld consensus).

 

[FrogReaver]

No; it's not.

A Barbarian and Paladins damage output in melee is far superior to anything they could spit out using Dexterity based ranged attacks (baseline).

Barbarians have 16 str 14 dex typically. Using a greatsword and raging is 2d6+5 = 12 at level 1. Using a bow is 1d8+2 = 6.5. Barbarians do about half damage with a bow. Though later and with some rage features this can drastically change.

Paladins find it harder to raise Dex. They would be more likely to have 16 str 12 dex in the best case. However, a paladin only does 2d6+3=10 damage. With a bow he does 1d8+1 = 5.5. That's about half, although there is an accuracy penalty that brings it down a little.

IMO, in many situations you are better off advancing while using a bow and then when you get close you dash into melee.

Move and Dash is better off in virtually every single case where you can reach them in a round or two.

If you can get to the enemy in a 1 round by dashing then you can get to them in 2 rounds by moving forward and firing a bow? The bow comes out better in that circumstance

An 11th level Paladin makes 2 shots with his bow, with no archery F/S, unable to smite or improved divine smite or much else of note. Even IF both attacks hit, he's dealing 2d8+(dex2).

Smites are a limited resource. Not sure why you are acting like he gets to smite every time he attacks. Besides if we are bringing spell slots into it - then for bows the paladin can use divine favor or hunter's mark (if vengeance).

Compare that to the hell he can unleash up close.

In this example that's 0 because he didn't get there this turn.

If you're a Paladin (or a Barbarian) and you're pulling out a bow, your enemy has already won.

No.

If I'm a Vengaladin Im moving, dashing, and Misty stepping to cover 90' in a round, instead of hanging back with a Bow. In 99 percent of combats, Im threatening the target now and he has to disengage or cop a smite to the face via an AoO.

Sure if you have movement abilities then take advantage of them. But that's not really what anyone has been talking about is it?

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

It's really not.

Really?
Its beating cantrips all the way from level 1 to level 11, and most of them even after that.
Its beating at-will weapon attacks from classes without extra attack from level 5 onwards.

(d8 + Ability mod), rising to 2 x (d8 + Ability mod) at level 5 as an at-will attack is not to be sniffed at, and better than many other classes' at-will damage over most of their adventuring career.