D&D 5E Ability Score Balance: through the eyes of fresh players

[Cap'n Kobold]

Paladins and Barbarians are utter naughty word with ranged attacks anyway (and as pointed out, they're the two classes that really benefit from Strength). They have zero class features that assist ranged attacks (other than extra attack, but by the time they're 5th level, they're really trying to close to melee at all costs anyway).

If your Barbarian or Paladin is whipping out a bow, they've already lost. No rage bonus damage, no reckless attack, no smites, no Smite spells, rage ending without a melee attack, no advantage to Strength checks etc etc etc.

Hitting an opponent with a bow for a couple of attacks is superior to having to wait a round or so not doing much. Its not as if Barbarians and Paladins get to Rage/Smite on every attack anyway.
Even without class features, their ranged attacks have better damage potential than cantrips in general.

Rogues and Rangers are the Dex go to guys. Barbarians and Paladins are always better going with Strength.

Fighters can go either way.

Feature; not a bug.

Again. The issue is not the existence of builds that use Strength. It is that dumping Str has few drawbacks for a build for which it is not primary, whereas dumping Dex penalises any build.

 

[FrogReaver]

Again. The issue is not the existence of builds that use Strength. It is that dumping Str has few drawbacks for a build for which it is not primary, whereas dumping Dex penalises any build.

So why do str builds with heavy armor regularly dump dex?

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

So why do str builds with heavy armor regularly dump dex?

Because they judge that the penalties to dumping Dex (initiative and ranged attacks most significantly) are outweighed by the benefits of higher stats in other areas I would guess.

 

[Don Durito]

This is what I said:

No.

(Aside from the tedious bookkeeping it probably won’t work. It‘s not sufficient to stop them dumping strength it’s just a way of punishing them for doing that.)

This what you said.

You willfully disregard a mechanism that helps prevent STR from becoming a dump-stat, and then complain players dump STR?

You'll note that I
1) did not complain about Strength being a dump stat.
and
2) Gave reasons why I believe that it will not achieve the goal of stopping Strength from being a dump stat (that is I guess arguable but no one appears to be arguing against that?)

Why is communication so hard? Why ask me a question which is nonsensical in the face of what I wrote? Do people just skim without reading and considering? And if so why would you reply? Or was what I said somehow unclear? (And if so I'd like some explanation for why it seems confusing as it seems fairly straightforward to me.)

I also asked a question which I consider very important and which no one responded to.

What is the goal? Is the goal to incentivise people to stop dumping Strength or Intelligence? Or is to make people feel that there is more of a consequence than at present to doing so? Because these are not the same goal.

 

[Raduin711]

Again. The issue is not the existence of builds that use Strength. It is that dumping Str has few drawbacks for a build for which it is not primary, whereas dumping Dex penalises any build.

Comparing this to Constitution, which as far as stats go is "Always a bridesmaid, never the bride" and Dexterity is "Always a bridesmaid, and sometimes the bride, too"

Strength and Intelligence are either the bride, or they aren't invited to the wedding.

 

[FrogReaver]

Because they judge that the penalties to dumping Dex (initiative and ranged attacks most significantly) are outweighed by the benefits of higher stats in other areas I would guess.

Exactly. But you aren't talking about how str characters with heavy armor always dump dex. Instead you are talking about dex like it's soo good that no one dumps it. Why is that?

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Exactly. But you aren't talking about how str characters with heavy armor always dump dex. Instead you are talking about dex like it's soo good that no one dumps it. Why is that?

Once again.
Dumping Dex penalises any build. Strength-based builds can and do dump Dex, or Wis or Cha fairly evenly, because each of those abilities provide benefits.
Dex-based builds almost always dump Str however, because there is very little loss in doing so: Dex already grants much of the benefits of Str in addition to others.

Furthermore, builds that are not directly Str or Dex based almost universally value Dex over Str.

 

[Don Durito]

Heavy armour builds can dump Dex because they've already lost access to one of it's major features increased AC, they also can't really make good use of Stealth which is probably the most useful Dex skill in most games. This brings it down somewhat in value. It's still good for Reflex saves, but without proficiency you're probably not going to be getting that much from it anyway, and initiative to my mind is somewhat overvalued in a cyclic system because it's only rolled once per combat and therefore the extreme swinginess of the D20 plays a larger roll than the Dex bonus anyway.

I still think on paper at least, dumping Intelligence is a no brainer for a heavy armour Fighter or Paladin, but a lot of it depends on how a low Intelligence is perceived. A lot of players can stomach their character being a bit clumsy better that they can the thought of them being stupid.

A Strength Primary Fighter playing the long game can benefit from having a good Dex. You get the ASIs to get hold of Medium Armour Master if you want to be decent at Stealth and you can pick Resilient (Dexterity) which makes actually passing Dex saves at higher levels a lot more likely. This is also a good choice if you're playing in a campaign where it's not advisable to wear heavy armour all the time (although I think these are rare these days because of how the system is built).

 

[Flamestrike]

I prefer not to enforce roleplaying in that kind of antagonistic manner, but you do you.

How is a DM enforcing a flaw, 'antagonistic'?

''No, Throkk; you're an Outlander Barbarian from the Wildlands with an Intelligence of 8; you dont have a clue about the History of these parts, what spell the Wizard is casting, or even what the local religions are; dont bother to roll Intelligence'.

And so forth.

 

[Flamestrike]

Hitting an opponent with a bow for a couple of attacks is superior to having to wait a round or so not doing much.

No; it's not.

A Barbarian and Paladins damage output in melee is far superior to anything they could spit out using Dexterity based ranged attacks (baseline). Move and Dash is better off in virtually every single case where you can reach them in a round or two.

An 11th level Paladin makes 2 shots with his bow, with no archery F/S, unable to smite or improved divine smite or much else of note. Even IF both attacks hit, he's dealing 2d8+(dex2).

Compare that to the hell he can unleash up close.

If you're a Paladin (or a Barbarian) and you're pulling out a bow, your enemy has already won.

If I'm a Vengaladin Im moving, dashing, and Misty stepping to cover 90' in a round, instead of hanging back with a Bow. In 99 percent of combats, Im threatening the target now and he has to disengage or cop a smite to the face via an AoO.