D&D 5E Ability Score Balance: through the eyes of fresh players

[DND_Reborn]

My only problem with removing Constitution from Hit Points is that it makes Con even worse off than Int. If you take away the one reason everyone takes Con, then it becomes the new automatic dump stat. Besides "roleplay reasons", why would anybody (besides MAYBE barbarians) take Con if it didn't boost your hit points? Anemic Paladins, everywhere.

But seriously, if you're interested in seeing what a four attribute D20 system would look like, take a look at Shadow of the Demon Lord. It's not perfect, but it's completely replaced 5E as my preferred system for the this niche (medium-density D20 fantasy). The part that puts most people off (unnecessarily edgy body horror) is really easy to excise without much difficulty, and otherwise it's a solid system with a few quirks.

I am not worried about CON becoming a dump stat. It is one of the most frequent saves (along with DEX) and used for Concentration.

Our house-rules also make CON valuable in a few ways:

• Death saves are linked to CON as checks (not CON saves)
• You make a CON check to remain conscious at 0 hp
• Your CON mod is bonus levels of exhaustion (which you get on a failed death save)

So, CON is still important to not be a dump stat, but not as important with the HP-link removed.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Hmmm now I'm thinking of rolling methods. Maybe a mix - Assign a 15,14,13 to any 3 stats of your choice. Roll 3d6 in order for the remainder?

I like rolling, but 4d6k3 is too generous IMO. When we roll we do d6 + d4 + 6 for a range of 8-16.

 

[FrogReaver]

I am not worried about CON becoming a dump stat. It is one of the most frequent saves (along with DEX) and used for Concentration.

Our house-rules also make CON valuable in a few ways:

• Death saves are linked to CON as checks (not CON saves)
• You make a CON check to remain conscious at 0 hp
• Your CON mod is bonus levels of exhaustion (which you get on a failed death save)

So, CON is still important to not be a dump stat, but not as important with the HP-link removed.

Seems you made Con more important for wizards than fighters. That's strange to me.

 

[FrogReaver]

I like rolling, but 4d6k3 is too generous IMO. When we roll we do d6 + d4 + 6 for a range of 8-16.

Doesn't your method yield higher high on average than 4d6k3?

 

[DND_Reborn]

Doesn't your method yield higher high on average than 4d6k3?

No, it is an average of 12 exactly.

Another method I was playing with that I like for tables who want the wide swing of 3d6 or 4d6k3 is 2d6 + d4 + 3. You get a range of 6 to 19, with an average of 12.5 (same as point-buy's "best" array).

 

[DND_Reborn]

Seems you made Con more important for wizards than fighters. That's strange to me.

Not really when you consider front-liners are the ones mostly likely to go done to 0 hp and make checks to stay conscious and having extra levels of exhaustion allows them to avoid the penalties otherwise.

 

[Mercurius]

I just use a higher point buy or roll stats, and once people aren't stressed about their main stats, everyone builds their stats for story and make more well rounded characters.

This. The RAW create a bit of a catch-22. Rolling is more fun than the standard array, but leads to group imbalance. Everyone wants that one 18, so why not give it to them? The point is fun, and players usually enjoy their character more if they have that special stat. It is a game of fantasy heroism, after all. On the other hand, no one likes the guy who shows up with his own character with three 18s, two 16s, and one 14, that he somehow magically rolled "fairly."

So here's a few ad hoc ideas to choose from, to generate very good but not necessarily over-the-top stats:
1) Every player starts with 6 + 2d6 in each stat.
2) Every player starts with an 18 and a 10, and rolls 4d6 six times, picking the four best.
3) Roll two sets of 4d6, choose the best set, and if you want, raise the highest score to 18, but lower the second highest to 10.
4) Roll one set of 5d6.
5) Roll a d6 24-30 times, arranging 18 top rolls as desired.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

This. The RAW create a bit of a catch-22. Rolling is more fun than the standard array, but leads to group imbalance. Everyone wants that one 18, so why not give it to them? The point is fun, and players usually enjoy their character more if they have that special stat. It is a game of fantasy heroism, after all. On the other hand, no one likes the guy who shows up with his own character with three 18s, two 16s, and one 14, that he somehow magically rolled "fairly."

So here's a few ad hoc ideas to choose from, to generate very good but not necessarily over-the-top stats:
1) Every player starts with 6 + 2d6 in each stat.
2) Every player starts with an 18 and a 10, and rolls 4d6 six times, picking the four best.
3) Roll two sets of 4d6, choose the best set, and if you want, raise the highest score to 18, but lower the second highest to 10.
4) Roll one set of 5d6.
5) Roll a d6 24-30 times, arranging 18 top rolls as desired.

There’s also the 32 pt buy option, and the improved standard array of 18, 16, 15, 14, 13, 10, or something similar. Or, make it all odd numbers, like a jerk. 17, 15, 15, 13, 13, 11.

 

[DND_Reborn]

@Mercurius, that is fine for tables that want that. I don't like starting with anything higher than a 16 in one stat, then maybe one or two +2s, etc. Sure, I want my character to be special, but I want to earn those higher scores personally. This is one of the reasons why any random system I use caps at 16.

I remember with this group at session 0 and one guy rolled an 18 for his tiefling warlock. Big shocker he put it in CHA for a 20. He had nowhere to go in that sense.

Anyway, I like some of your ad hoc ideas. I've used 2d6 + 6 before in other editions where raising stats wasn't as likely.

I know it just totally depends on the player which style you prefer, so to each their own.

 

[Mercurius]

@Mercurius, that is fine for tables that want that. I don't like starting with anything higher than a 16 in one stat, then maybe one or two +2s, etc. Sure, I want my character to be special, but I want to earn those higher scores personally. This is one of the reasons why any random system I use caps at 16.

I remember with this group at session 0 and one guy rolled an 18 for his tiefling warlock. Big shocker he put it in CHA for a 20. He had nowhere to go in that sense.

Anyway, I like some of your ad hoc ideas. I've used 2d6 + 6 before in other editions where raising stats wasn't as likely.

I know it just totally depends on the player which style you prefer, so to each their own.

Yep. This is one of the things groups can discuss before the start of a campaign: what sort of characters you want to play. If you want random and flawed, traditional 3d6. If you want standard, go the standard route. If you want heroic, use one of the methods I or doctorbadwolf mentioned. Etc.