D&D 5E Ability Score Balance: through the eyes of fresh players

[FrogReaver]

I think it is more because the costs for dumping stats is rarely enforced IME unless the DM is a stickler for it. A lot of games hand-wave away encumbrance, so having a sorcerer with STR 8 is not a big deal. That character is not expected to do the heavy lifting and since DEX (Acrobatics) can be used in place of STR (Athletics) in most combat situations, it isn't a penalty there, either.

Most do use encumberance - it's just so hard to hit the limit in the default rules that it just seems like it's being ignored.

In a similar fashion, low INT and CHA also don't really affect much because most players play their characters as more intelligent and charismatic than the character should be. So, again unless the DM steps in and makes them play appropriately or use checks instead of role-play, there isn't much impact to the cost.

Valid Low Int playstyle - come to the same conclusions the intelligent character would come to for all the wrong reasons - at least until the big consequential moments occur and then your stupidly incorrect conclusion is wrong for all to see.

Valid Low Cha playstyle - You've almost got being charismatic down. You say mostly the right things but have a tendency to really mess up your charm in the big moments.

A player can play a PC with a low stat in lots of different ways. IMO DM's shouldn't be policing that. Instead give them the opportunity to fall flat on their face once in a while.

I am not saying their isn't a cost, just that I rarely see it have an impact to the point which having a dumped DEX, CON, or even WIS will have.

Nearly all classes need dex and con. Wisdom is a stat I've dumped many times. It rarely had an impact. I've dumped con before. It had an impact on me playing my rogue a lot more skiddish but that was all (behavior change only). I don't think it ever had an impact other than that - i mean my hp value showed low but tactically positioned myself to avoid most all damage anyways so not really much impact.

In fact, I think I've dumped nearly all stats before. I find dumping a stat tends to give my characters a more fun and memorable personality than not doing so. IMO stat dumping shouldn't be discouraged but instead encouraged.

 

[BrokenTwin]

@WayOfTheFourElements: The four attribute model you're talking about is what Shadow of the Demon Lord uses. Which, related to the OP, I've used to run Lost Mines of Phandelver with little difficulty. Like, at all.


@Xeviat: If I was going to tweak the D&D attributes to be more "balanced", I'd start with a small nerf to the most overused attribute (Dexterity) and a small buff to the most underused attribute (Intelligence).

For Dexterity, I'd nerf it by replacing it with the proficiency bonus for determining initiative. This makes it slightly less valuable for all characters, not just martials.

For Intelligence, I'd buff it by making it so you get an additional number of skills equal to your bonus. Reducing the number of skills Wizards get by two to offset the disproportionate effect this change would have on them.

Combined, these changes are minor, and don't heavily impact the balance of the game, but they make Int feel less useless and Dex feel less overpowered.

As to Constitution... I honestly can't think of any useful change that could be made to it other than scrapping it entirely and rolling all of its mechanics into Strength. But that involves rebalancing the point buy, standard array, and a bunch of other fiddly junk, so I'd be fine with just leaving it as is.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Most do use encumberance - it's just so hard to hit the limit in the default rules that it just seems like it's being ignored.

Or it flat-out is ignored because it is so hard to hit the limit by the default rules.

Valid Low Int playstyle - come to the same conclusions the intelligent character would come to for all the wrong reasons - at least until the big consequential moments occur and then your stupidly incorrect conclusion is wrong for all to see.

Valid Low Cha playstyle - You've almost got being charismatic down. You say mostly the right things but have a tendency to really mess up your charm in the big moments.

A player can play a PC with a low stat in lots of different ways. IMO DM's shouldn't be policing that. Instead give them the opportunity to fall flat on their face once in a while.

Those "valid" styles are fine once in a while, but not all the time. And how do you suggest giving "them the opportunity to fall flat on their face once in a while."???

Nearly all classes need dex and con. Wisdom is a stat I've dumped many times. It rarely had an impact. I've dumped con before. It had an impact on me playing my rogue a lot more skiddish but that was all (behavior change only). I don't think it ever had an impact other than that - i mean my hp value showed low but tactically positioned myself to avoid most all damage anyways so not really much impact.

In fact, I think I've dumped nearly all stats before. I find dumping a stat tends to give my characters a more fun and memorable personality than not doing so. IMO stat dumping shouldn't be discouraged but instead encouraged.

That is why I said, "or even WIS" because it isn't as vital RAW as CON or DEX.

I'm glad you find dumping stats so useful in a character-developing way, but IME most players, especially new ones (which this thread started about) do it because they see a place where they can have a "weakness" which just doesn't impact the game for them.

THAT is the issue. It isn't that the cost ins't there, it is that it lacks impact unless the DM enforces things similar to my points.

Finally, one thing to keep in mind (I am guilty of this myself) is when we talk about dump stats, for me that is 8 or 9 because I play point-buy with rolling 4d6k3 optional. I rarely roll because otherwise I get scores that are too good and it takes away some challenged. Anyway, an 8 or 9 only carried a -1 penalty, so it isn't like the character is super-deficient or anything. The important point, however the DM does, is to try to make those -1's come up once in a while so that player doesn't feel they got away with an extra boost elsewhere for nothing.

 

[DND_Reborn]

{snip}

As to Constitution... I honestly can't think of any useful change that could be made to it other than scrapping it entirely and rolling all of its mechanics into Strength. But that involves rebalancing the point buy, standard array, and a bunch of other fiddly junk, so I'd be fine with just leaving it as is.

The house-rule I am using for my next game removes Hit Points from ability scores altogether. You get half your proficiency bonus (round up) each level, so +1 to +3. It gives a bit less HP overall, but not a ton and makes things a bit better balanced.

With that in mind, I might look into the 4-ability system myself as it seems like a natural progression.

 

[Blue]

One thing to think about if you are going to change ability score balance - also figure what are the weakest and take things from the strongest and give to the weakest until they are balanced.

For example INT is pretty weak. Moving Initiative from DEX to INT, being able to comprehend a situation and formulate a reaction being providence of the quick thinking.

And don't forget these vary by table. One table may have a lot of RP requiring rolls. Another might focus on exploration and discovery. In one, CHR might be favored while in the other it's weak. For a game as a whole this is not something that can be taken into consideration, but for what you do at your table you can.

 

[BrokenTwin]

The house-rule I am using for my next game removes Hit Points from ability scores altogether. You get half your proficiency bonus (round up) each level, so +1 to +3. It gives a bit less HP overall, but not a ton and makes things a bit better balanced.

With that in mind, I might look into the 4-ability system myself as it seems like a natural progression.

My only problem with removing Constitution from Hit Points is that it makes Con even worse off than Int. If you take away the one reason everyone takes Con, then it becomes the new automatic dump stat. Besides "roleplay reasons", why would anybody (besides MAYBE barbarians) take Con if it didn't boost your hit points? Anemic Paladins, everywhere.

But seriously, if you're interested in seeing what a four attribute D20 system would look like, take a look at Shadow of the Demon Lord. It's not perfect, but it's completely replaced 5E as my preferred system for the this niche (medium-density D20 fantasy). The part that puts most people off (unnecessarily edgy body horror) is really easy to excise without much difficulty, and otherwise it's a solid system with a few quirks.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

When I want to see a smart fighter at my table, as a PC I play one. As a DM, I'll take whatever my players want to play.

Do you use Point Buy or Standard Array, or do you roll in some fashion. My experience is that this attitude is directly connected to rolling. When we roll, you see intelligent Fighters often. When we use PB or SA, we see them never (unless a subclass benefits from it, I expect).

 

[FrogReaver]

Do you use Point Buy or Standard Array, or do you roll in some fashion. My experience is that this attitude is directly connected to rolling. When we roll, you see intelligent Fighters often. When we use PB or SA, we see them never (unless a subclass benefits from it, I expect).

Yep. Rolling allows for far less cookie cutter characters at the expense of potentially less intra PC balance in the game.

 

[bedir than]

Do you use Point Buy or Standard Array, or do you roll in some fashion. My experience is that this attitude is directly connected to rolling. When we roll, you see intelligent Fighters often. When we use PB or SA, we see them never (unless a subclass benefits from it, I expect).

I use Point Buy, often randomly rolled so as to inspire interesting characters.

But I also understand that 5e is forgiving enough that a <5% difference in success/failure on a specific role won't matter in the long run

 

[FrogReaver]

Hmmm now I'm thinking of rolling methods. Maybe a mix - Assign a 15,14,13 to any 3 stats of your choice. Roll 3d6 in order for the remainder?