D&D 5E Ability Score Balance: through the eyes of fresh players

[Ruin Explorer]

Interesting to see how new players reacted to this. My main group of veterans consistently dumps INT in 5E. Few spells use INT to save, and whilst there are several INT-based skills, unless you actually have the skill and a high INT bonus, you're unlikely (and slightly implausible) to make those checks anyway. Typically one party member has a higher INT, so they do that stuff.

INT is just pretty useless apart from those specific skills. You don't gain any extra skills/languages from it in 5E (unlike all other editions?). It has little/no value in combat (isn't a bonus to anything, rarely used as saves). So unless your class requires it... Our latest party has an INT 8 and an INT 9 character in it (point-buy so a lot of people don't have anything below 10). I'm the smartest guy in the party. At INT 11 (everyone else 10 I think). Hoo boy. We only have one STR 8 (a Sorcerer). WIS got dumped when we started 5E, but people learned... you roll that a lot. Tons of saves against really bad spells, Perception, Insight. It matters.

 

[DND_Reborn]

A couple people have mentioned CON and its tie to hit points, and how they wish it were otherwise. My response is simple:

Hit points are not just meat. I think most of us understand the abstractness of hit points that way. It is skill, luck, energy, divine favor, etc. as well as the ability to take a hit and withstand pain. Because HP is abstract, stop linking it to only the "meat" portion, i.e. Constitution modifier.

Link it to whatever ability would most benefit that character in combat.
Make HP per level equal to HD plus your maximum ability score modifier (if CON is it, then you use it...).

A rogue is not standing there, taking hits, if he can possibly avoid them. Skill and energy and movement are what turn those lethal blows into misses or mere scratches.

A cleric is inspired by his god to move, has their favor and influence turn aside a lethal blow so it barely touches him.

A wizard uses his keen mind to understand his opponent's actions and act to stop a deadly strike before it happens by stepping back or something.

However you want to narrate it, you can tie ANY ability score to hit points because of that abstract nature. So, tie in whatever one is the best--as that is the one that is most likely used.

Consequently, when characters at our table gain HP, the get the hit and their maximum ability score modifier at that time. Now, this is only for permanent scores. You won't gain HP when wearing Gauntlets of Ogre Power. If you decided to allow that, no problem, but FWIW we don't.

Problem solved.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Interesting to see how new players reacted to this. My main group of veterans consistently dumps INT in 5E. Few spells use INT to save, and whilst there are several INT-based skills, unless you actually have the skill and a high INT bonus, you're unlikely (and slightly implausible) to make those checks anyway. Typically one party member has a higher INT, so they do that stuff.

INT is just pretty useless apart from those specific skills. You don't gain any extra skills/languages from it in 5E (unlike all other editions?). It has little/no value in combat (isn't a bonus to anything, rarely used as saves). So unless your class requires it... Our latest party has an INT 8 and an INT 9 character in it (point-buy so a lot of people don't have anything below 10). I'm the smartest guy in the party. At INT 11 (everyone else 10 I think). Hoo boy. We only have one STR 8 (a Sorcerer). WIS got dumped when we started 5E, but people learned... you roll that a lot. Tons of saves against really bad spells, Perception, Insight. It matters.

I am glad you mentioned this. INT, WIS, or DEX can be used for your Initiative modifier at our table. Not just DEX.

 

[FrogReaver]

Classes that need Str for combat:
Barbarians (Typically)
Fighters (Some)
Paladins (Typically)
Rangers (Some)

Classes that need Dex for combat:
Barbarians (All)
Bard (All)
Clerics (Some)
Druids (All)
Fighter (Some)
Monks (All)
Paladin (Few)
Rogue (All)
Ranger (Some)
Sorcerer (All)
Warlock (All)
Wizard (All)

This is the real reason Str is so often a dump stat while Dex is not.

 

[FrogReaver]

Classes that need Intelligence for combat
Wizards (All)

Classes that need Wisdom for combat
Cleric (All)
Druid (All)
Monk (All)

Classes that need Charisma for combat
Bard (All)
Paladin (All)
Sorcerer (Typically)
Warlock (Typically)

Classes that need Constitution for combat
All of them

This is the real reason Intelligence is also a very often dumped stat while Constitution is not.

 

[FrogReaver]

So IMO, if you want to see less Str and Int dump stats, the only way you are going to do that is by making classes or subclasses that benefit in combat from those stats.

 

[billd91]

The problem I see here is: if no stat is dumpable, everyone needs to be good at everything - which requires flat arrays. If everyone is going to have a +2 mod in all the abilities anyway, because anything else will be punished, why even have ability scores? Why not just assumes a flat array and give everyone a +2 to everything (or reduce the dc's)?

I disagree. It’s not a question that no stat is or should be dumpable, it’s that no stat should be dumpable with impunity. There should always be a cost to doing so, and a player should recognize that they are accepting that cost by leaving or making a stat low. It doesn’t mean their stats should all be equal or that a player will actually embrace that psychology.

 

[FrogReaver]

I disagree. It’s not a question that no stat is or should be dumpable, it’s that no stat should be dumpable with impunity. There should always be a cost to doing so, and a player should recognize that they are accepting that cost by leaving or making a stat low. It doesn’t mean their stats should all be equal or that a player will actually embrace that psychology.

Why does there need to be a bigger cost to dumping a stat than there already is - because there is already a cost. Why shouldn't there be obvious choices on which stat/stats a class can dump?

 

[bedir than]

When I want to see a smart fighter at my table, as a PC I play one. As a DM, I'll take whatever my players want to play.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Why does there need to be a bigger cost to dumping a stat than there already is - because there is already a cost. Why shouldn't there be obvious choices on which stat/stats a class can dump?

I think it is more because the costs for dumping stats is rarely enforced IME unless the DM is a stickler for it. A lot of games hand-wave away encumbrance, so having a sorcerer with STR 8 is not a big deal. That character is not expected to do the heavy lifting and since DEX (Acrobatics) can be used in place of STR (Athletics) in most combat situations, it isn't a penalty there, either.

In a similar fashion, low INT and CHA also don't really affect much because most players play their characters as more intelligent and charismatic than the character should be. So, again unless the DM steps in and makes them play appropriately or use checks instead of role-play, there isn't much impact to the cost.

I am not saying their isn't a cost, just that I rarely see it have an impact to the point which having a dumped DEX, CON, or even WIS will have.