D&D 5E Ability Score Increases (I've changed my mind.)

I’ve given you my definition twice now. Tack “oid” onto the end of “human” in that definition and it applies to D&D races just fine.

Biological determinism and biological essentialism are very closely related concepts, but they are not interchangeable. Biological essentialism is treating someone’s essential qualities as biologically determined. How strong someone is is absolutely biologically determined. Whether they are “a jock” is not, and treating it as such is called “biological essentialism.”
I'm not sure that you're correct. Then again, I'm not sure that I am correct. But 'biological essentialism' is literally so obscure term that it doesn't even have Wikipedia page, so it is possible that it actually isn't particularly strictly defined.


I’m not sure that I can in all cases, and it’s those cases I would like to actually discuss, instead of wasting time and energy bickering about things that are obviously not. Can we please put the stupid examples like aarakocra flight and dragonborn breath to bed so we can talk about the cases with actual ambiguity like Goliath strength and gnome intelligence? Thanks.
Sure. The point of those clear example was to show that it is actually a continuum.

Nothing in that quote ascribes essential qualities of changeling nature to their shape shifting. “many” changelings use this gift as a form of artistic and emotional expression,” nor “changelings are artistically and emotionally expressive thanks to this gift.” “It is an invaluable tool for grifters, spies, and others who wish to deceive,” not “changelings are grifters and spies who use this tool to deceive.” “This leads many people to treat Changelings with fear and suspicion,” not “Changelings should be treated with fear and suspicion.”
Sure. And I think in hands of some other writer those same things might have been described in somewhat more problematic light. But it is actually a good example how to write a description.

No, it’s a result of their biology. Extrapolating to their essential nature, such as calling them “natural athletes” or what have you due to that biology is what we call biological essentialism.

It is essentializing for an entire race of people to be better fighters than entire other races, just as it would be for an entire race of people to be better weightlifters than entire other races.
I don't think your distinction is coherent here. It is not essentialising to describe them having a quality due their biology, but it essentialising to point out that this might make them good at things that quality is useful for?

(And under the current rules and without ASIs goliaths definitely make better weightlifters than most other races.)

The general D&D playing public?
I think that is way less concerned about this stuff than either of us...

We are working with a logically semi-coherent framework, it just isn’t completely deterministic. It requires socially constructed consensus, just as all such frameworks do. But pointing out absurd examples that are obviously outside that framework and trying to claim the framework is useless because it doesn’t deterministically rule them out does not help to build that consensus. It only distracts from the process of building that consensus, which is why it comes across as bad-faith to do.
Sorry if that's how it came across. Not really what I was going for.

Ok, then you don’t have to bother. The rest of us will enjoy our cool game with imaginary people who look different and have different capabilities than humans but aren’t treated as monoliths because of their different appearances and capabilities.
Right. So funny looking humans with superpowers. Have fun!

It’s not useless at all! On the contrary, it opens up room for more varied stories to be told using them, and makes them infinitely more nuanced and interesting characters.
You're really not telling stories about dwarves if there isn't anything that even coherently defines a dwarf. "Dwarves are just like humans except maybe a bit shorter." You can tell varied stories about humans, and if your non-humans are not different from humans, you don't need them to tell those stories.
 

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We do have a framework, which are the tropes and language used to define otherness and dehumanize individuals and groups in recent and continuing history. It's a framework, though, amenable to argumentation and historical citation but not reducible to a one page checklist.
Sure.

Let's say as a rule of thumb (that is, a quick summation of an aspect of that larger framework, not a set-in-ston-apply-in-all-cases type of rule), we say giving different creatures inherent physical abilities--like flying, not having to sleep, being resistant to fire, breathing electricity, or shooting lasers out their eyes--is a kind of essentialism or archetype-making that is not likely in itself to cause correspond to real-world bigotry, and so is generally ok. But that ascribing what we usually think of as individual personality traits to entire species is more likely to be similar to the language employed by real world racism (and moreover, reductive and simplistic world building.

Between the two comments quoted above, you seem to be arguing that the former (differentiation by physical/supernatural abilities) is cosmetic and superficial and thus not worth bothering over and that thus the latter (assigning individual personality traits to entire creatures, wholescale) is the only way to provide meaningful differentiation? I think this is an unreasonable demand. Differentiating fantasy creatures by their supernatural abilities, shooting lasers out of their eyes for example, is a very practical and actionable method of differentiating fantasy biology from culture in a way that could both remove problematic language and provide opportunities for richer worldbuilding. Maybe it's not completely internally consistent, in one view, that readers would be offended by a fantasy race that was uniformly hot tempered but not one that could uniformly shoot lasers from their eyes, but that's why we have a framework for reading and not a determinative one page checklist when we design and play games.
I am really not expecting some super deep xenofiction here. Sure, ultimately social intelligent humanoids are going to be rather similar, especially as many of fantasy species seem to be hominids too. But that is not the same than them being identical to humans.

The sort of thing I would be aiming here is something like Vulcans and Klingons in Star Trek. Sure, they're very similar to humans and they're not incomprehensibly alien. But they still have pretty distinct way of thinking that sets them apart. To me this is interesting. This actually makes these species memorable over random bumpy-head alien that behaves exactly like an average human. Are these sort of depictions problematic, are they too difficult for D&D players to pull off? (And of course even a whole species having some sort of tendency doesn't mean that literally every member of the species needs to follow that tendency.)
 
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You're really not telling stories about dwarves if there isn't anything that even coherently defines a dwarf. "Dwarves are just like humans except maybe a bit shorter." You can tell varied stories about humans, and if your non-humans are not different from humans, you don't need them to tell those stories.

What's an example of a story that requires dwarves? Or are you saying the dwarves in, say, middle earth were distinct enough from humans that it allowed Tolkein to tell a particular kind of story?
 

I'm not sure that you're correct. Then again, I'm not sure that I am correct. But 'biological essentialism' is literally so obscure term that it doesn't even have Wikipedia page, so it is possible that it actually isn't particularly strictly defined.
"Biological essentialism" is an extrapolation from "gender essentialism". Essentialism as a whole is the belief that objects have a set of attributes that are necessary to their identity. So where "gender essentialism" is when the qualities of "man" and "woman" are believed to have fixed, inherent qualities and characteristics (as opposed to being socially constructed), the term "biological essentialism" is used to identify similar modes of thought as they apply to other biological characteristics. Usually, this term comes up in discussions about transgender people and transgender identity, but apparently there is also an argument going on in the taxonomy field over whether Linnaen taxa have inherent essences, which is... odd from an outsider's perspective.



 

"Biological essentialism" is an extrapolation from "gender essentialism". Essentialism as a whole is the belief that objects have a set of attributes that are necessary to their identity. So where "gender essentialism" is when the qualities of "man" and "woman" are believed to have fixed, inherent qualities and characteristics (as opposed to being socially constructed), the term "biological essentialism" is used to identify similar modes of thought as they apply to other biological characteristics. Usually, this term comes up in discussions about transgender people and transgender identity, but apparently there is also an argument going on in the taxonomy field over whether Linnaen taxa have inherent essences, which is... odd from an outsider's perspective.



Thank you. Yeah, I'm familiar with the gender essentialism angle. I'm still not sure that the definition particularly coherent when applied to actual different species. And I've also seen several times 'biological essentialism' and 'biological determinism' referred as synonyms, so that definitely is one definition. But biological determinism overall seems to be more clearly defined of the two terms.
 

I'm not sure that you're correct. Then again, I'm not sure that I am correct. But 'biological essentialism' is literally so obscure term that it doesn't even have Wikipedia page, so it is possible that it actually isn't particularly strictly defined.
Eh, nothing is strictly defined, language is based on usage. That’s why I don’t care to argue semantics here. If you don’t like the term I’m using, feel free to substitute another term you like more, the point is what I’m using it to mean.
Sure. The point of those clear example was to show that it is actually a continuum.
I don’t think anyone disputes that it’s a continuum, so this doesn’t really add anything helpful to the conversation.
Sure. And I think in hands of some other writer those same things might have been described in somewhat more problematic light. But it is actually a good example how to write a description.
Agreed! This is why sensitivity readers are a valuable thing to have.
I don't think your distinction is coherent here. It is not essentialising to describe them having a quality due their biology,
Right, because that quality doesn’t define their essence. To use an analogy, it isn’t misogynistic to observe that male humans are larger abs stronger on average than female humans. But it is misogynistic to say that men are better athletes than women.
but it essentialising to point out that this might make them good at things that quality is useful for?
It’s essentializing to attribute their essential nature to that biological trait. Might being naturally stronger be an advantage if you decide to become a weight lifter? Absolutely. That doesn’t mean men are essentially better weightlifters than women. There is a great deal beyond raw physical strength and size that goes into weight lifting - technique, mindset, drive, etc. to say nothing of the fact that some women are in fact stronger than some men. The same can, and should, be true of different fantasy races. Now, is it biologically essentialist to say Goliaths are stronger than gnomes on average? No. But it would be to say that Goliaths are better barbariana than gnomes. And even if the game never outright says that, the mechanics are such that they imply it. If you want to build a gnome barbarian, you’re going to find that your character is just worse at doing most of the things a barbarian does.
(And under the current rules and without ASIs goliaths definitely make better weightlifters than most other races.)
A Goliath can lift more than a member of another race with the same strength score. That doesn’t equate to “Goliaths are good weightlifters.”
I think that is way less concerned about this stuff than either of us...
Given that WotC felt the need to publicly announce that they had done a poor job representing race in 5e and would be taking steps to change it? I disagree, I think the general D&D playing public is clearly concerned about this matter.
Right. So funny looking humans with superpowers. Have fun!
If you insist on calling it that. I will!
You're really not telling stories about dwarves if there isn't anything that even coherently defines a dwarf. "Dwarves are just like humans except maybe a bit shorter."
There are more differences than that between humans and dwarves. See my previous post.
You can tell varied stories about humans, and if your non-humans are not different from humans, you don't need them to tell those stories.
Of course you don’t need them to tell those stories. But the fact of the matter is that a lot of people want to use them to tell those stories, and that’s enough for them to be worth including.
 

What's an example of a story that requires dwarves?
I don't know, I don't like dwarves... :ROFLMAO:

Or are you saying the dwarves in, say, middle earth were distinct enough from humans that it allowed Tolkein to tell a particular kind of story?
Hmm. Perhaps. Tolkien's dwarves are not terribly different from humans, but still enough that you can actually describe their common themes and attributes. I think the dwarven obsession with crafted items, their history, old grudges stubbornness and honour certainly enhanced those stories. And yes, he could have told similar stories with humans, but I don't think they would have been quite so thematically coherent and thus would have been less impactful. But I don't know, I really don't get or like dwarves, so I might not be the right person to talk about them.
 


Dwarves are different from humans and orcs. They have a different range of typical body proportions, their visual perception system works differently (than humans; orcs and dwarves are the same there), they have more robust systems for managing toxins, the list goes on. Just because you only care about differences in essential nature that are biologically determined doesn’t mean others shouldn’t.
How is "+2 Con", or even "+2 Con, -2 Dex" not biologically determined?
 

It’s essentializing to attribute their essential nature to that biological trait. Might being naturally stronger be an advantage if you decide to become a weight lifter? Absolutely. That doesn’t mean men are essentially better weightlifters than women. There is a great deal beyond raw physical strength and size that goes into weight lifting - technique, mindset, drive, etc. to say nothing of the fact that some women are in fact stronger than some men. The same can, and should, be true of different fantasy races. Now, is it biologically essentialist to say Goliaths are stronger than gnomes on average? No. But it would be to say that Goliaths are better barbariana than gnomes. And even if the game never outright says that, the mechanics are such that they imply it. If you want to build a gnome barbarian, you’re going to find that your character is just worse at doing most of the things a barbarian does.
Ok...

A Goliath can lift more than a member of another race with the same strength score. That doesn’t equate to “Goliaths are good weightlifters.”
What? Yes it does! Or rather they have far easier time becoming great weightlifters than most other races (including gnomes.)* And this was the exact thing you had a problem with when it was being a barbarian instead of a weightlifter a second ago!

*In fact that their advantage here is so massive, that it is literally impossible for most other races to come even close to their top potential, whereas this is not the case at all with being a barbarian.

And I also say that neither goliaths being barbarians or better weightlifters than gnomes is any sort of social justice issue whatsoever. The former might be a game design issue depending on your priorities though.

Given that WotC felt the need to publicly announce that they had done a poor job representing race in 5e and would be taking steps to change it? I disagree, I think the general D&D playing public is clearly concerned about this matter.
On some level yes. And that is good thing.

There are more differences than that between humans and dwarves. See my previous post.
You mean the cosmetic and superpower related ones?

Of course you don’t need them to tell those stories. But the fact of the matter is that a lot of people want to use them to tell those stories, and that’s enough for them to be worth including.
Why? Is it just that you can describe your character looking fantastic? Because sure, I love that too. But if that and superpowers is all there is, I'm out.
 

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