D&D 5E Ability Score Increases (I've changed my mind.)

I know about your example, it doesn't apply to the post I responded to I thought.
Yes it does. It the orc had decided to focus on strength, the others would have not been able to match them in that area.

So, your real point is that you want to set up so that a player who is playing an intelligence boosting race is automatically going to be the character with the highest intelligence,. They might need to invest a little, they certainly can't have rolled for stats, but if they focus on their intelligence that number is higher for them than for anyone else in the party.
Yes.

Okay. Tell me, how do you see this happening in a party with an Orc, a Half-Orc, Minotaur and Goliath? If all of them focus on their strength.... they are exactly the same? No one can be the best right? What about a group comprised of a Kenku, a Lotusden halfling, a wood elf and an Aarcrockra? Can one of them be the best in the party at Dexterity?

So, why are we setting up a model of who is going to be "the best" that falls apart so quickly?
I mean literally only one of these species exists in my setting and one reason I have reduced the roster is that I can actually provide reasonable areas of expertise and themes for different species without there being massive overlap or them becoming bizarrely narrow caricatures. But yes, theoretically several things can have the same the competence niche, that isn't and shouldn't be the only thing that differentiates the species, it is just one tool in the toolbox.
 

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How much do people change or homebrew in their games? Because it seems like this is actually about different ways of using a game product. Some seem to want a pretty well defined default without too many moving parts (racial asi, creature alignment, consistent lore). Others see the game as a toolkit, a set of suggestions that you can take, if you don't have any other ideas, or, as often, leave, at least partially, as you create your own thing. Whereas the former might see the value in a gaming product come from things that are well defined and set, if not in stone, at least in hard clay. The latter (myself included), wants a machine with a fairly open structure and lots of transparent dials to create a good gameplay experience. For me, the fiction of the setting (whether the average elf is dexterous, for example), is decided by me as dm, not by any mechanic in the rulebook.
 

Interesting. But that link is implicit in the phb text. The entry for elves says they are "graceful," but also says a lot of other things that may not be true for your particular elf and are not represented in the mechanics of the class (they "are talented artisans," "take up adventuring out of wanderlust," and "reply to petty insults with disdain and to serious insults with vengeance."). If anything I would think the MM entries for different races would be more indicative of race typicality
Graceful is a racial trait. Artisans, adventuring, wanderlust and disdain are preferences that many elves have. One is optional and the others are not. You aren't going to find elves that aren't better on average than humans are with dex. The lowest elves will be 2 points higher than the lowest humans. The average elf will be 2 points higher than the average human. And the cap will be the same, because rules. If stats didn't cap, elves would be at an advantage at the top as well.

Graceful also might not be true for your PC. Even though the racial bonus would apply to your PC, you could roll low or not point buy above 8, making your PC's dex anywhere from 5-10, depending on the method used.
 

Yes they are. No matter what scale you use for humans, goliaths are stronger.

Um, no. First, +2 would make it 10-38. Second, since you're putting humans on an 8-36 scale due to lifting ability and goliaths can lift double what a human can, the goliath strength scale is 20-72. That's what I would call stronger.

D&D needing to balance things just gives goliaths +2 to strength, though. That's bad enough. No bonus over humans would be even more absurd.

So, a few mistakes here. Easily made, but still mistakes.

Humans get a +1 strength, so Goliaths actually only get a +1 over humans.

I'm not talking about their ability, only their strength. Note that that ability blew the scale out of the water, compared to just having the bonus. I mean, it isn't even a question who is stronger if you look at at these two scales.

(8 - 36) vs (16 - 72)

But this set up is, like I said, way more head scratching

(8 - 36) vs (9 - 37) Even if I say that the human is floating so the goliath should be (10 - 37) it is still.. basically nothing. And in fact, it is more noticeable as a raising of the floor than a cap of the top. And the thing is... narratively, that doesn't matter.

Excellent. I'm not the one arguing realism, though. So don't attribute that to me please. I'm saying, and it is factually true, that goliaths are stronger than humans and should get a strength bonus to represent that.

See, here is the problem with your "fact". It isn't a fact, it is a tautology.

Goliaths are stronger than humans because they have a +2 strength, and they have a +2 strength because they are stronger than humans, and because they are stronger than humans they have a +2 strength.

It just circles and fulfills itself. So, you can't rely on "it is a fact" because the thing we are arguing is the core identity of that fact. Does DnD really make it seem like Goliaths are stronger than humans? Through the ability Powerful Build? Most certainly. Through that +1 strength over what a human can get, before the human takes a half feat to get a total of +2 strength at character creation? No. No they aren't. They are actually, identically strong to humans. Or, if you insist on the base human to prevent that feat... they have a +1 over humans.

No you can't. "Improving" is improving, not "fixing." They are different words for a reason. Racial bonuses are not broken and so cannot be fixed. As for improved, that's subjective and I'm sure it did make a difference for some people. If you prefer it, as I said in my last response to you, then you'll like it better. It won't be "fixed," though.

Weird. Seems fixed. The things that weren't working before are working now. IT seems more like it just... you don't like it and that is also a subjective opinion.

I'm arguing the facts. If you were able to time travel and went back in time with modern training knowledge and machines, you could maximize both of their potentials and he would be stronger. Even then the max potential for men and women were different. They just didn't achieve those potentials. She trained better than he did is all. She doesn't somehow prove that physiology was different 100 years ago.

So, with no knowledge of her family history, or even if she trained, you want to argue that it was a fact that she trained better than him?

If you want to argue facts, go do some research into her training methods. But my point was fairly simple. In the 1920's no one thought a woman could outlift the strongest man in the world, it was impossible. She did it anyways. Today, no one things a woman can outlift the strongest man in the world.... but does that mean it is actually impossible? Or just incredibly unlikely? Of course it would be incredibly difficult, maybe it borders on impossible, but that doesn't mean it actually is impossible.
 

If whatever comes next just covers the floating bonuses, then we lose an aspect of the elf archetype that has been represented in the system since at least 1e AD&D.

From my perspective, since it took all of 1.5 pages of Tasha's to describe how groups can follow the archetypes or not and offer some guidance to trade-off the archetypical characteristics, I don't see why they couldn't keep the archetype and incorporate Tasha's suggestions in whatever exists going forward. That really would be a case where we both do get the elf we want.

If everything is floating, the archetype as noted by @billd91 is less defined.

That is the opposite of what I want.

The D&D elf traditions comprise a pluralism. There are different kinds of official elf archetypes. I want 5e mechanics to empower the player to choose and build any of these official archetypes.

My concern about enforcing Dexterity is its reductionism. The D&D 5e elf tradition includes different kinds of elf archetypes. Forcing a +2 on the Dexterity score loses the aspects of the other D&D elf traditions.

Officially, the 5e Players Handbook "high elf" represents more traditions than just the 1e high elf tradition. The 5e high elf also explicitly represents the 1e "gray elf", and the 3e "sun elf". These two are parts of D&D that I care about.

In 5e mechanics, the "gray elf" needs to improve its Intelligence score by +2. The sun elf too needs the Intelligence score +2, and totally lacks a Dexterity score improvement. The 5e Players Handbook damages these two D&D traditions by explicitly identifying as these two but destroying their Intelligence archetype.

The elf, more than any other race tradition, needs floating ability scores to represent the D&D traditions. Swapping the +2 to Intelligence best represents the 1e and 3e elf traditions.

The 4e eladrin elf with its improvements to the Intelligence score and the Charisma score is an archetype tradition that remains missing from 5e elf.

When translating the gray elf and sun elf traditions into 4e mechanics, the combination of Intelligence and Charisma best expresses these two D&D elf archetypes.

Meanwhile the narrative flavor of Charisma is a prevailing elf archetype since the beginning, as innately magical, enchanters, singers, dancers, other artists, and so on. The moon elf is especially social.



When the 5e Players Handbook mentions the gray elf and the sun elf, and other elves that the 5e high elf represents, only floating ability score improvements can authentically translate all of these D&D elf traditions into 5e mechanics.

There is more than one kind of elf archetype.

If one were to argue that the 3e sun elf wasnt about Dexterity but the 5e sun elf is a high Dexterity concept, then this disconnect from the D&D tradition itself can just as easily assert any 5e mechanics for the 5e elf arbitrarily. To change the sun elf makes it just as valid to change any other elf tradition.

By contrast, to stay true to the D&D elf traditions requires the ability score improvements float.

5e mechanics need to avoid reductionist essentialism.

There are different kinds of elf archetypes. D&D 5e can support the D&D traditions by allowing the player to build the archetype that the player wants to play.

The 5e mechanics work better when nonessentialist mechanics − both in the sense of choosing between different kinds of elf essences such as choosing which elf feat one wants − as well as being able to modify these essences such as floating ability scores and proficiencies.



Supporting a diversity of elf archetypes helps avoid a racist stereotype. Also, supporting a diversity of elf archetypes stays truer to the D&D traditions about elves. Especially, the 5e high elf needs diversification because it mentions by name, gray elf, sun elf and moon elf, who are not at all like the way the 5e Players Handbook high elf is.
 

Yes it does. It the orc had decided to focus on strength, the others would have not been able to match them in that area.


Yes.


I mean literally only one of these species exists in my setting and one reason I have reduced the roster is that I can actually provide reasonable areas of expertise and themes for different species without there being massive overlap or them becoming bizarrely narrow caricatures. But yes, theoretically several things can have the same the competence niche, that isn't and shouldn't be the only thing that differentiates the species, it is just one tool in the toolbox.


So, you want the game to specify that is you play the right race, you can perfectly fill a niche. Then allow multiple races to fill that niche (where you will for your personal game cut those races, to preserve one race, one niche)

But, you reject the idea of using floating ASIs to allow any race to fill any niche... why?

Why is it acceptable to have (literally) five races that are +2 Strength, +1 Con races, and seven that a +2 Dex, +1 Wisdom races but it isn't acceptable to have a floating ASI that lets a sixth or eighth race fill those niches? You've already lost Niche Protection. you can't have a Niche that has seven different options in it, and I'm not even talking about +2 Dexterity, I'm talking +2 Dexterity, +1 Wisdom. A highly specific set of scores.

There is nothing here to preserve. You can't possibly look at seven different races and say "well, this is fine, but if I added one more this niche wouldn't be protected anymore"
 

How much do people change or homebrew in their games? Because it seems like this is actually about different ways of using a game product. Some seem to want a pretty well defined default without too many moving parts (racial asi, creature alignment, consistent lore). Others see the game as a toolkit, a set of suggestions that you can take, if you don't have any other ideas, or, as often, leave, at least partially, as you create your own thing. Whereas the former might see the value in a gaming product come from things that are well defined and set, if not in stone, at least in hard clay. The latter (myself included), wants a machine with a fairly open structure and lots of transparent dials to create a good gameplay experience. For me, the fiction of the setting (whether the average elf is dexterous, for example), is decided by me as dm, not by any mechanic in the rulebook.

I homebrew a decent amount, but not excessively I don't think
 

So, you want the game to specify that is you play the right race, you can perfectly fill a niche. Then allow multiple races to fill that niche (where you will for your personal game cut those races, to preserve one race, one niche)

But, you reject the idea of using floating ASIs to allow any race to fill any niche... why?

Why is it acceptable to have (literally) five races that are +2 Strength, +1 Con races, and seven that a +2 Dex, +1 Wisdom races but it isn't acceptable to have a floating ASI that lets a sixth or eighth race fill those niches? You've already lost Niche Protection. you can't have a Niche that has seven different options in it, and I'm not even talking about +2 Dexterity, I'm talking +2 Dexterity, +1 Wisdom. A highly specific set of scores.

There is nothing here to preserve. You can't possibly look at seven different races and say "well, this is fine, but if I added one more this niche wouldn't be protected anymore"
Well, as I said, I feel D&D has way too many races, or at least too many for one setting. If you use them as toolbox and just choose some to populate your setting then that's fine. But there still is a massive difference between there being several species that are good at the same thing and everyone being equally good at the thing. I don't even understand how this can be weird to you. Gorillas, bears and lions are all stronger than humans. That's pretty different situation to all animals being equally strong!
 

Well, as I said, I feel D&D has way too many races, or at least too many for one setting. If you use them as toolbox and just choose some to populate your setting then that's fine. But there still is a massive difference between there being several species that are good at the same thing and everyone being equally good at the thing. I don't even understand how this can be weird to you. Gorillas, bears and lions are all stronger than humans. That's pretty different situation to all animals being equally strong!
Would you say that dnd is the best system for modeling those kind of differences? I would think something like a CoC-style % system would do a much better job (if still quite abstracted for the purposes of making a playable game)
 

That could very well be true.

But do we honestly care about 5% of the Goliath population? Or do we care about Throgg, son of Ram, who was born amidst a primal storm? He's less than 1% of the population, but he is also the POV character that those other thousand or so Goliath's aren't.
Based on the conversations in this thread, I think it's obvious that some of us only care about the pc goliaths, but some of us very much do care about the rest of the population and how it is represented by the rules in game.
 

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