D&D 5E Ability Score Increases (I've changed my mind.)

[Maxperson]

Well, if you are defining "optimal" as mathematical combat efficacy, then yes. Although even then not always true. I'm pretty sure it's consensus that with some builds there are feats that are more optimal than ASIs. I guess you could argue that it's still optimal to eventually max out your primary stat.

But, really, "optimal" should factor in softer variables, like roleplaying, or having fun abilities (whether from racials or feats), or improving the efficacy of some of those abilities. (E.g., is it more optimal for a Paladin to invest in Strength or Charisma? Does a monk invest in Dex or Wis? It depends on how you play your class and which features you most value.)

My primary argument is that these other options are, from looking at the data, insufficiently appealing to many/most players to counterbalance the obvious benefit of +1 to your primary stat.

"Optimal" always seems like a bit of a Red Herring. Optimal for what? If I like to focus on roleplay and you like to focus on combat, what is optimal for us is going to be different. It's even more wonky when you realize that there a different avenues to both roleplaying and combat, with different "optimal" choices for each.

The problem I see is that a lot of people like to judge others by their preferred way to play and are like, "But if you do that you're gimping yourself by not being optimal." No. I just have a different preferred way to play and your "optimal" is not mine.

 

[Lyxen]

Wanting your tiefling cleric to have a 16 wisdom at level 1 isn't powergaming. It's just wanting them to be in the same place as is expected of a 1st level cleric.

And here you go, I don't need all the rest of the post to show that it is absolutely all about powergaming. What do you care what a 1st level generic cleric is ? Will there be another cleric in the group ? Probably not. And even if there is one, your wisdom score is not tattooed on the forehead of your tiefling cleric. So it's all about comparing your character to others.

In our campaigns, no-one has access to the stats of any other character. There is no comparison, and with a d20 range, there is no way a measly +1 will statistically make a difference over even several evenings of play.

Again, I don't care if people powergame at their tables or not, and it's not because they powergame that they don't enjoy other aspects of the game as well. But still that envy, that jealousy, that comparison to standards and other characters is creating tension, in particular about this issue of racial ASIs and all the other troubles that come with the notion of race (as compared to ethnicity).

 

[Maxperson]

And here you go, I don't need all the rest of the post to show that it is absolutely all about powergaming. What do you care what a 1st level generic cleric is ? Will there be another cleric in the group ? Probably not. And even if there is one, your wisdom score is not tattooed on the forehead of your tiefling cleric. So it's all about comparing your character to others.

They're right and you are wrong about this. Mild optimization with racial bonuses is NOT power gaming.

In our campaigns, no-one has access to the stats of any other character. There is no comparison, and with a d20 range, there is no way a measly +1 will statistically make a difference over even several evenings of play.

Cool. Racial bonuses still do not equate to power gaming.

Again, I don't care if people powergame at their tables or not,

Excellent. Perhaps, though, you should learn the difference between optimization and power gaming before you run around accusing people of something that they aren't doing.

 

[Bill Zebub]

. But still that envy, that jealousy, that comparison to standards and other characters is creating tension, in particular about this issue of racial ASIs and all the other troubles that come with the notion of race (as compared to ethnicity).

I’m not seeing “anger” and “jealousy” in what people who support floating ASIs are writing. Are you inferring those things?

Also, it sounds like you are entangling this issue with that other debate about orcs and racism. Is that the case?

 

[Lyxen]

They're right and you are wrong about this. Mild optimization with racial bonuses is NOT power gaming.

Then what is it ? It has all the marks of it, especially when people consider that they cannot make characters of another race that they deem inferior to the optimal race because it lacks a +1 somewhere in its bonuses. It's all about comparison to standards and other characters, all for the sake of power, so it's absolutely powergaming. A very mild case of it, for sure, but it is.

 

[Lyxen]

I’m not seeing “anger” and “jealousy” in what people who support floating ASIs are writing. Are you inferring those things?

Never wrote about anger, but envy and jealousy for sure. They just want the same bonuses as others who made more technically optimal choices.

Also, it sounds like you are entangling this issue with that other debate about orcs and racism. Is that the case?

Believe me, if it was up to me I certainly would not entangle it, but some people really want it, so it makes the issue even more difficult to discuss without prejudice.

 

[Maxperson]

Then what is it ?

I answered that. It's mild optimization which is not even close to rising to the level of power gaming.

It's all about comparison to standards and other characters, all for the sake of power, so it's absolutely powergaming.

Again. You should learn the difference before you come accusing others of doing something that they aren't. Optimization is not the same as power gaming.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Then what is it ? It has all the marks of it, especially when people consider that they cannot make characters of another race that they deem inferior to the optimal race because it lacks a +1 somewhere in its bonuses. It's all about comparison to standards and other characters, all for the sake of power, so it's absolutely powergaming. A very mild case of it, for sure, but it is.

Every player I’ve ever met makes at least some choices based on math, not story. (You may be the rare or unique exception who NEVER does this; I have no idea.)

And as far as I can tell, most people define optimization as what they themselves do, and powergaming is when somebody else does more of it.

So basically it’s pointless to argue definitions.

 

[Malmuria]

And here you go, I don't need all the rest of the post to show that it is absolutely all about powergaming. What do you care what a 1st level generic cleric is ? Will there be another cleric in the group ? Probably not. And even if there is one, your wisdom score is not tattooed on the forehead of your tiefling cleric. So it's all about comparing your character to others.

In our campaigns, no-one has access to the stats of any other character. There is no comparison, and with a d20 range, there is no way a measly +1 will statistically make a difference over even several evenings of play.

Again, I don't care if people powergame at their tables or not, and it's not because they powergame that they don't enjoy other aspects of the game as well. But still that envy, that jealousy, that comparison to standards and other characters is creating tension, in particular about this issue of racial ASIs and all the other troubles that come with the notion of race (as compared to ethnicity).

I'm confused as to your argument. Do you think the base game should include racial ASI or floating ASI? For either case, why?

 

[Maxperson]

Every player I’ve ever met makes at least some choices based on math, not story. (You may be the rare or unique exception who NEVER does this; I have no idea.)

And as far as I can tell, most people define optimization as what they themselves do, and powergaming is when somebody else does more of it.

Nah. Power gaming is when the focus of the game involves power for the PCs. It's taking optimization up to the nth degree. Playing Pun-Pun or other other cheese builds in a real game. Or a DM I played with loved to give out cool abilities and items of great power. His game was absolutely a power game. In one campaign I ended up with a 20th level fighter that turned out to be the son of Kord, had 430something hit points, an AC of 50something, saves that were +30 to +40, had a short sword of sharpness that between my feats and itself had a critical threat range of 12-20 and if I did a crit, the target had to save vs the damage it took or lose a limb. My base damage was 1d6+32, boosted to 1d6+72 with a special kind of power attack, so crits were 1d6+144(good luck saving that limb). I was swinging at +52, +47, +42 and +37. And that just begins to touch on the stuff he gave me.

THAT was a power game. And also a lot of fun, even if it was not my normal choice of game style.

Optimizing a bit is just that. Optimizing. Nothing wrong with doing it. Nothing wrong with not doing it.