AD&D second edition: Why be hatin'?

[thalmin]

As far as i'm concerned 2nd edition is a pale shadow to third.

But how about comparing it to AD&D, over which it was supposed to be an improvement.

Every wizard(or insert other class) was the same as every wizard(or insert other class).

In 1E yes, in 2E wizards could be specialists; fighters could specialize in different weapons; thieves chose which abilities to improve /level and how much; and specialty priests got different spells. None of that was possible in 1E before UA came out. Most wasn't even after.

Poor flexibility in multiclassing with strange penalties/limitations

Same with 1E.

Crap for skills

No skills in 1E.

Poor mechanics thaco/ac/why does my monk not get a dex bonus(1sted?)

Thac0 was better than several pages of charts.

Fast and loose combat system ( I would not say this is a plus or a minus, but I prefer 3 - 3.5)

Pretty much the same as 1E.

Fast and loose situational resolution. Why can't my guy do X? comes up much less in our 3.5 games.

You just had to wing it in 1E.

All in all, I liked 1E, thought 2E was an improvement, and much prefer 3.X.
I do think they stumbled a few times. Dungeoneer/Wilderness Survival Guide had a few good ideas (like skills) but TSR didn't know how to implement them yet.
Likewise the Players Option books had some great ideas (character cutomization) but lousy execution. In both cases the better stuff made into the next edition after the designers figured out how to make it all (or most) work.

 

[Pants]

HeyheyheyHEY!

I loved Spelljammer! Ran a serious-not-so-serious campaign with it for 2 years. My favorite part was the PC's who captured a Neogi Deathspider, and who painted it with Purple and Green Lawful Good Holy Symbols to keep the Elves from attacking it the minute they sailed into the Rock of Bral.

Sorry, but I can't take SJ seriously, especially with the way it infected other settings like some viral disease. I remember reading in the 2e MM about Illithids and their wrecked Spelljamming ships. It was lame then and it's even lamer now that I know what a Spelljamming ship is.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Sorry, but I can't take SJ seriously, especially with the way it infected other settings like some viral disease. I remember reading in the 2e MM about Illithids and their wrecked Spelljamming ships. It was lame then and it's even lamer now that I know what a Spelljamming ship is.

Yeah. Spelljammer should have been a setting all of it's own, and not tried to be some sort of web between the established worlds.

And it sure as hell shouldn't have had giant space hamsters.

Giff were cool though.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

That only came up in the Dark Sun sourcebook "Thri-kreen of Athas", which nerfed the 'kreen in two ways: no Strength bonus on natural attacks (which was stupid)

I could have sworn I saw that rule in the revised Dark Sun rules.

and reduction of their natural AC from 5 to 8 (which combined with their minimum Dex gave them an effective AC of 5, like the monster writeup).

This was later admitted as a mistake. Of course, with 2e's errata policy...

Other than that, Thri-kreen of Athas was a great book however. One of the fluffiest books ever, with the right touch of crunch too.

Hear hear!

 

[rounser]

As for the great settings mentioned, they're great in spite of being written for another edition, not because of that.

I'm speculating, but except for the real world analogs like Al Qadim, I don't think that settings like Dark Sun or Planescape could or would have been created under a 3E ruleset. In homebrews too, 2E's flakiness ruleswise made it easier to think outside the box.

I think you can see the hangover of this in the pages of Dungeon magazine - there seems to have been a certain pizazz missing from many of the adventure concepts since the edition change, IMO, but that could well just be my memory silver-lining the old stuff.

Something you learn when associating with any sort of fandom: Fans define themselves at least as much by what they hate as by what they love.

Very true - from RPG gaming to electronic dance music to politics, you've hit the nail on the head.

 

[Psion]

I'm speculating, but except for the real world analogs like Al Qadim, I don't think that settings like Dark Sun or Planescape could or would have been created under a 3E ruleset.

I think the rules set would accomodate it just fine. I don't think, however, that it would happen now given the current attitude and philosophy of the design team.

 

[Alzrius]

While I'm not very nostalgic about the mechanics of 2E, the flavor aspect of it is, undoubtedly (to me), the high point of D&D. Never before have we gotten so many flavorful and varied campaign worlds. Never have we seen adventures that were so notably influenced by other existing products to weave a rich tapestry of a living world. And never had we had so much useful information about...well...everything, at our disposal.

For me, the main difference in what 2E and 3(.5)E offer is broken down thusly: 3E offers what is useful, but 2E offered what was interesting.

 

[rounser]

I think the rules set would accomodate it just fine. I don't think, however, that the current attitude and philosophy of the design team would seem to preclude it.

Yeah, what you've written there is a good clarification of what I meant (e.g. the Dungeon magazine conversion of Dark Sun pretty much proves firsthand that the rules can accomodate it).

 

[Some guy from Ohio]

Struck lately with nostalgia, I actually find myself missing those old 2E days. Some of my best gaming times came from a 2E gaming table and how could that inspire any kind of hate from me. I have always felt that the mechanics are less important, than the game experience and as long as it is fun, I don’t care what edition it is. (But don’t listen to me….I loved Spelljammer).

 

[Incenjucar]

To a degree I think it has to do with the attitudes of the era... I mean, just look at this thread at how many people -hated- this or that. Perhaps it was the lack of 'net, but I never noticed so much -hatred- in people in the 90s, when 2e was popping out whacky but fun things.

I mean, seriously, is there anything remotely useful in having -hatred- for giant miniature space hamsters? It's a -joke-, for a -game-, that's supposed to be for -fun-.

Now, that said, I was never especially interested in SJ, but -hating- it... I just never found -hate- to be a fun part of gaming.