AD&D second edition: Why be hatin'?

[Incenjucar]

What's the second F for? "What the Funny Farm?"

1) Blaming a rule set for flavor text makes no sense. That's blaming Bob in payroll because Rob in mail spilled coffee on your paycheck.

2) You got it wrong. That's blaming Lucas for your not figuring out to just watch the older edition that, if you're a fan, you should own already. Lucas can't be blamed for your not making purchases or copying your own tapes if you watch them enough to ruin them.*

*I think Lucas made some bad decisions, but if I -really- want to see Star Wars original crispy style, I can, gasp, watch the version that was made before he got goofy!

Edit:

Just for reference's sake, I -do- know how you feel. As a Planescape fan, I've watched the flavor designers at WotC write their name in the snow that is my favorite setting. But it's not the fault of the rules, or the edition, and it's no reason to -hate- anyone. I just don't have the urge to spend money for wastes of paper like the PLHB, when I can go and read my 2e PS materials and be happy as a dire clam who just ate everyone at a clam bake.

 

[Particle_Man]

In defence of Akrasia, I think her point was that she was not happy with the fact that a) they radically changed the series of world books, a series that she had liked the old way (adding in a metaplot, etc.), and b) stopped making new ones the old way she liked. The latter meant that she had a finite, rather than indefinite, series of books for the world she liked. And that, given the new direction taken with that world, there would be no new books set in the world the way she liked.

That IS a great reason to hate 2e. (not my own reason; I never collected the Gazzetteers) If it hadn't been for 2e, then TSR might have kept producing gazzateers the way she liked them.

My own reason for hating 2e is the "all fizz and no gin" thing -- fluff with no thought of rules balance whatsoever, leading to the accelerated surge in the rising tide of munchkinism. 3e is rules heavy (lots of bonuses to remember), but at least trying to be balanced. 2e didn't even try that hard, with their supplements.

 

[Akrasia]

.... it's no reason to -hate- anyone. ....

Based on your earlier posts in this thread Incenjucar, you seem terribly worried that people might ... gosh .. hate people.

Relax. Hating what someone did with a particular game system or world, or wrote in a particular module, etc., does not amount to hating that person.

In my field of academia, people argue with each other about pretty fundamental issues until they are blue (or, more likely, red) in the face. But it does not necessarily follow that they hate each other. Indeed, quite the opposite. They 'hate' each others' positions -- but they would not bother to argue if they genuinely loathed each other as living organisms (i.e. people incapable of changing their minds on the basis of good reasons).

The stakes are far lower in RPGs than they are in the real world. People need to relax. I hate what the 2E people did to my beloved "Known World", and I hate what George Lucas did to "Star Wars." This does not mean that I want to hunt them down and feed their hearts to some demonic god.

We are defined as much by what we dislike in art, literature, music, and other aesthetic endeavours, as we are defined by what we like. Explaining why I "hate" country music does not mean I hate the people who really dig it. But it is part of who I am.

 

[Akrasia]

What's the second F for? "What the Funny Farm?"
....

The first "F" always means "flying" !!!!

 

[Incenjucar]

Based on your earlier posts in this thread Incenjucar, you seem terribly worried that people might ... gosh .. hate people.

Nah. Hate can be healthy and rational. Like, say, "I hate that TSR's decision to start 2e led to the dissolution of my preffered setting and style". It's still a bit extreme of an emotion (Honestly, I don't see a point in -hating- anything less than a murderer, rapist, harmful politician, or the like, but whatever boats your float.), and poorly directed. The issue you have is basically 'coorporate reality' or even 'capitalism' not 'The 2nd edition rule set and settings'. You're upset because the company didn't continue producing books for you and those who share your taste. They did so because of money issues (that is, they wanted more of it). But 2e had no more to do with it than 3e did.

Relax. Hating what someone did with a particular game system or world, or wrote in a particular module, etc., does not amount to hating that person.

Quite relaxed, thank you. I find arguments soothing. Just my nature. As for that, it was a miswrite. I meant -thing-. I miswrote due to having my thoughts on the Lucas example. My bad.

In my field of academia, people argue with each other about pretty fundamental issues until they are blue (or, more likely, red) in the face.

It's fun, isn't it? Especially when people start crying because they just can't stand that someone disagrees.

But it does not necessarily follow that they hate each other. Indeed, quite the opposite. They 'hate' each others' positions -- but they would not bother to argue if they genuinely loathed each other as living organisms (i.e. people incapable of changing their minds on the basis of good reasons).

Hating a position is somewhat pointless unless it's a directly harmful position (such as on the abortion issue, wherein the two main positions are harmed by the success of their rival -please, nobody drag that into a topic-).

The stakes are far lower in RPGs than they are in the real world. People need to relax. I hate what the 2E people did to my beloved "Known World", and I hate what George Lucas did to "Star Wars." This does not mean that I want to hunt them down and feed their hearts to some demonic god.

At least you're getting closer to where your anger should be directed. Do you agree, though, that 2e itself had nothing to do with it? Remember, 2e is the system, not the design philosophy of what was added on to the system.

We are defined as much by what we dislike in art, literature, music, and other aesthetic endeavours, as we are defined by what we like. Explaining why I "hate" country music does not mean I hate the people who really dig it. But it is part of who I am.

Like I said earlier, fans are fans because of everything they hate as much as by what they love. Part of why I refuse to be a fan. I have my personal tastes, and in the case of music, I cringe in the presence of stuff that seriously clashes with it and avoid it, but I've never felt the emotion required to use the word 'hate'. But, eh.

 

[Nisarg]

W-t--FF??? :\

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

My point was simple: the "Known World" (the original GAZ series) was excellent. A high point in TSR publishing.

Then around 1993/4 TSR decided to revamp the setting for 2nd edition which involved, like all their other worlds for 2nd edition, introducing a pointless "meta-plot" for the world, mangling the existing material, etc.

So I dislike 2E because its approach to campaign world design led to the degrading and abandonment of TSR's best world to date.
[/I]

Akrasia, your story mirrors mine! Like someone else mentioned here, I went from 1e to D&D "basic" (there was little basic about it, the Rules Cyclopedia still contains some rules and concepts that have been done better there than in any other version of D&D, including 3e!).

And I LOVED the gazetteer series.

And, like you, I dropped Mystara completely when it was switched to AD&D 2e and turned all craptastic.

Sadly, that is one setting that is easily the most underappreciated of all the old TSR settings, easily one of the best IMO.

Unfortunately, it doesn't look like an official 3e edition of it will ever come out, though maybe that's a good thing, I'd almost hate to see the Known World turned from what it once was into a cavalcade of uber-powered feat-loaded, PrC-ridden superheroes blowing each other to pieces with their Kewl Powerz a la Eberron.

Nisarg

p.s. Fortunately, I have recently managed to get my hands on a complete oD&D set: the Cyclopedia, all of the gazetteers, Dawn of the Emperors, the Princess Ark boxed set, the Blackmoor Series, some of the B and X series of adventures, Hollow World, Wrath of the Immortals, even the somewhat lamentable Red Steel boxed set.
I'm going to very much enjoy running that here, in South America where apparently the "basic" D&D series never showed up, and no one even knows much less has played in Mystara.

 

[Gnarlo]

No hate for 2e here, simply absolutely no experience with it whatsoever. The group I was in at the time went "no thank you" when the new edition came out and there was suddenly new versions of all the expensive (to us on student wages) rulebooks. We were also a bit burnt out on D&D at that time and I believe we were probably looking for a reason to try new games like Rolemaster; and therefore could view the release of 2e like many view the release of 3.5, merely trying to grab more money for books we already had (afterall, there was nothing wrong with the game we had . Then came a long period away from roleplaying all together, until one day I heard 3rd edition was coming out, looked at what was known about it, and liked it.

I've since picked up a lot of the pdfs of 2e stuff like the Faerun regional books and things and really have enjoyed them. I'm glad I managed to pass on all the splatbooks and stuff at the time, for the sake of my wallet if nothing else.

 

[jasamcarl]

Akrasia, your story mirrors mine! Like someone else mentioned here, I went from 1e to D&D "basic" (there was little basic about it, the Rules Cyclopedia still contains some rules and concepts that have been done better there than in any other version of D&D, including 3e!).

And I LOVED the gazetteer series.

And, like you, I dropped Mystara completely when it was switched to AD&D 2e and turned all craptastic.

Sadly, that is one setting that is easily the most underappreciated of all the old TSR settings, easily one of the best IMO.

Unfortunately, it doesn't look like an official 3e edition of it will ever come out, though maybe that's a good thing, I'd almost hate to see the Known World turned from what it once was into a cavalcade of uber-powered feat-loaded, PrC-ridden superheroes blowing each other to pieces with their Kewl Powerz a la Eberron.

Nisarg

p.s. Fortunately, I have recently managed to get my hands on a complete oD&D set: the Cyclopedia, all of the gazetteers, Dawn of the Emperors, the Princess Ark boxed set, the Blackmoor Series, some of the B and X series of adventures, Hollow World, Wrath of the Immortals, even the somewhat lamentable Red Steel boxed set.
I'm going to very much enjoy running that here, in South America where apparently the "basic" D&D series never showed up, and no one even knows much less has played in Mystara.

I love it when you wax ignorant about Ebberon

 

[Altalazar]

I think 2E gave great settings and, for a while, had 1E much simplified - there was just so much in 1E that was complicated and didn't quite fit (and therefore, though part of the rules, was just ignored). With 2E you really could use all of the published rules in the game and have it go smoothly. I think that is what is missed out on when people think back to 1E - they really didn't play 1E, they played a pared-down version of it, because the rules, if all used, were probably unworkable. (Weapons speed, segments, etc...)

2E also did have a mechanic I found superior even to 3E - specialty priests. Oh well.

Oh yes, and I liked Ravenloft, Al-Quadim, and Spelljammer. But especially Ravenloft.

 

[Brennin Magalus]

Oh, I won't argue too hard about that (with the exception of Complete Elf... I once had a player tell me 'its official, you have to let me use it!' I told him 'I have a door, it's official, you have to use it.' He got the point.)

LOL! That's classic.