AD&D second edition: Why be hatin'?

[Tyler Do'Urden]

Balance in 2nd Edition- the WGFTGIGFTG principle

Am I the only person who didn't find a balance problem with books like Complete Elf, 2nd edition Psionics, skills and powers, etc?

If it was, it's because I played by a very simple principle: What's good for the goose (in this case, the players) is good for the gander (in this case, the DM).

If the players insist on making "twinked-out", overpowered characters, they're going to naturally face even greater challenges. I can make overpowered villainous psions, vampire warlords, 18th level Drow Crusader/Monks, extremely powerful magic items that drain the PC's of half their strength if they even touch them, etc... balance is up to the DM, not the system. There are two ways to do this- throw out the options, or up your own firepower.

I chose the latter.

It was much more fun.

Then again, I was a high school student with quasi-infinite free time for dreaming up new ways to inflict pain on my friends. Now that I'm an adult, I'm glad that I have 3e to handle at least a few of the balance issues- though I still generally design my challenges according to the WGFTGIGFTG principle...

 

[Nisarg]

I love it when you wax ignorant about Ebberon

I could have just as easily said FR.

Or just about any 3e setting these days, except those rare few where there is a great deal of restriction on what kind of powergaming-heavy feats and PrCs can be taken (exceptions like midnight).

Nisarg

 

[VirgilCaine]

Spelljammer, Birthright, and most of the other settings for 2e not mentioned were pretty appalling.

Appalling how exactly?

 

[Philip]

Am I the only person who didn't find a balance problem with books like Complete Elf, 2nd edition Psionics, skills and powers, etc?

If it was, it's because I played by a very simple principle: What's good for the goose (in this case, the players) is good for the gander (in this case, the DM).

Balance is not a player-vs-DM issue, its a player-vs-player issue, or (sometimes) a rules issue.

 

[Tyler Do'Urden]

Balance is not a player-vs-DM issue, its a player-vs-player issue, or (sometimes) a rules issue.

There is no such thing as a rules issue outside of being a player-vs-DM issue, since the rules only exist in the space between the two. There is the issue of player vs player, true, but if you know how to fairly challenge a greatly unbalanced party, and ego issues don't trip you up, it's seldom a problem. My current 3e campaign includes some characters that are unbalanced in respect to each other- but due to the different playing styles of the players, it works out.

 

[Tyler Do'Urden]

I could have just as easily said FR.

Or just about any 3e setting these days, except those rare few where there is a great deal of restriction on what kind of powergaming-heavy feats and PrCs can be taken (exceptions like midnight).

Nisarg

What's wrong with powergaming? Powergaming is an important part of any roleplaying game- in fact, the games which don't involve powergaming seldom hold much interest for me...

 

[Orius]

4. Politics. The people running TSR at the time of 2e were disdainful of the prior creators of the game, disrespectful of its own customers, and lawsuit happy. They also bowed to pressure and pc-ized the rules.

Yeah, it makes sense that at least some Lorraine hate is behind it (and no I do not fear her.) I think the real icing on the cake was the copyight infringement charges against people who were posting house rules and stuff on the net. The broken rules, the excessive product, and the elitism were bad enough, but the conflict over online material was probably the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

 

[Psion]

Balance is not a player-vs-DM issue, its a player-vs-player issue

It's really both.

Player vs. player, you don't want one player to hog the spotlight, one option to be the obvious choice that everyone takes, etc.

Player vs. DM, you don't want to make it too much of a task for the GM to challenge all of the PCs without killing or otherwise unduly inconveniencing some of them.

Of course, the latter is why I never bought the RIFTS philosophy of "if the players can do it, the GM can too."

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

but if you know how to fairly challenge a greatly unbalanced party

A good DM wouldn't let this happen in the first place. Banning or modifying broken stuff helps to avoid this situation in the first place.

 

[Orius]

Am I the only person who didn't find a balance problem with books like Complete Elf, 2nd edition Psionics, skills and powers, etc?

If it was, it's because I played by a very simple principle: What's good for the goose (in this case, the players) is good for the gander (in this case, the DM).

If the players insist on making "twinked-out", overpowered characters, they're going to naturally face even greater challenges. I can make overpowered villainous psions, vampire warlords, 18th level Drow Crusader/Monks, extremely powerful magic items that drain the PC's of half their strength if they even touch them, etc... balance is up to the DM, not the system. There are two ways to do this- throw out the options, or up your own firepower.

I chose the latter.

It was much more fun.

I did that too. I once rolled up a +1 spear on the treasure tables for a goblin lair I was writing up, then using a combination of Complete Humanoids and Skills and Powers, I stuck that spear into the hands of a 5th-level hobgoblin fighter with weapon specialization and weapon mastery in spears. Gave him proficiencies and abilities specifically meant to kick PC ass.

Did I mention this was for a group of 1st-level PCs?

And of course, if you used High Level Campaigns, there was a system in there for assigning ability scores to monsters. As a DM, I'd only bother with a simplified version of that and only assign stats to Str, Dex, and Con. High Level Campaigns was a pretty good book that offered a lot of solid advice even for low-level adventures.

Of course, that made more work for DMs, and there were those who didn't want to go the extra mile. Certainly, you couldn't just pull any monster meant to be a challenge right out of the MM without tweaking it if you had a party using PHBR and PO stuff indiscriminantly.