Adapt or Perish!

[RFisher]

But D&D has survived by reinventing itself. 3rd Edition is most definitely proof of that, as active D&D support would probably be dead if 3e hadn't happened.

That doesn't mean it wouldn't have been better to let D&D "die" & invent a new game rather than reinventing D&D.

Not on the level of D&D, which is what they want. Even the Star Wars RPG can't compare with D&D's sales.

Sure they could. Sure, the D&D brand does a lot to bolster D&D sales, but Hasbro has the pockets needed to market something without the D&D brand well enough to rival D&D.

Besides the fact that I don't think the Star Wars RPG is anywhere near the kind of thing I'm talking about, Wizards clearly isn't trying to get its sales to approach D&D's.

& that's not even touching on whether Wizards could be marketing D&D itself better than they are.

Now, you look at 2-3 shelves of $30 books at Borders and have to figure out which ones you need. Then you have to find the dice these books refer too.

A couple years ago I picked up the 3.0 D&D basic box. It provided you with characters (no creating your guy), had a series of battles on a grid (little to no story), no rules for creating an adventure (aspiring DMs need not apply). Furthermore, I had to buy it at a dedicated hobby shop.

Well, I saw the 3e Basic box at Borders just last week. They did make an introductory box that could and did get into the proper channels.

Although I suspect it hasn't sold very well (especially consider how many I've seen in surplus/returned merchandise channels) & that your other criticisms are indeed part of the reason why.

 

[Lurker37]

I've had a few friends who have delighted in the idea of D&D, but have been seriously disappointed by the magic rules. So, they can get picked up by the recasting of how magic functions.

Bingo.

My largest and most regular gaming group consists of a dozen people ranging in age from 15 to 50. They cut their teeth on Elric and Earthdawn over a decade ago (yes, not all the current group played back then), in campaigns that each spanned 5+ years.

D20 leaves them cold. We've tried D&D and various D20 games - none of them lasted more than a handful of sessions, even when they were really taken by the setting.

The strongest complaint? The magic system. (A close second was per-day character abilities.) It just didn't fly with this group, at all. As a result, they no longer have any interest in playing D20.

If 4e changes that, then I for one would certainly regard it as a good thing.

 

[Thundershield]

I have no problem with them changing the mechanics. In fact, I have liked most of what I've heard so far in that regard. It's all the (imo unnecessary) fluff changes that turn me off. What is wrong with the Elves we have had since the game came out, for example? Last I checked, they were perhaps the most popular fantasy race. You can have new rules without radically changing the setting and races in the game. I fail to see how having Eladrins is going to make anyone's game run smoother. It's purely fluff. You can improve the rules and gameplay and still keep the game true to itself.

Funny you mentioned them. I think I saw a blog recently... *digs* Ah, right.. Here.

They're not changing the fluff beyond recognition. They're just setting up the game mechanics more clearly, so people will know that a tree-hugging, bow-shooting, forest-prowling elf is an "Elf" and a magic-dabbling, syllable-mumbling, arcane-affinity elf is an "Eladrin". The 3rd Edition elf tried to be both and, as some have said here, failed to some extend.

We'll see core books with mechanics, and the campaign settings will nicely inform you how to adapt the mechanics so the fluff fits. Otherwise you can change bits and pieces till you feel it fits your game.

 

[Minicol]

D&D is the most popular because it changes, though.

From the existence of 3e to the update (3.5e) to the new books (PHB-II and ToB, but also ToM and Draconomicon and Dragon Magic and MIC), D&D has been a moving target for years.

The leader of the pack has to move forward if he wants to stay there.

Cheers, -- N

I do not agree that change in the rules is the main reason of D&D success. I think the real reason that D&D rules, over previous rivals, like say, Warhamster, is that it was a generic enough system, that could be adapted to whatever fantasy type you wanted : say Dark Sun, Planescape, Eberron .... without learning a new system.

Who cares about the rules ? What matters is the fun you have.

 

[Midknightsun]

Bingo.

My largest and most regular gaming group consists of a dozen people ranging in age from 15 to 50. They cut their teeth on Elric and Earthdawn over a decade ago (yes, not all the current group played back then), in campaigns that each spanned 5+ years.

D20 leaves them cold. We've tried D&D and various D20 games - none of them lasted more than a handful of sessions, even when they were really taken by the setting.

The strongest complaint? The magic system. (A close second was per-day character abilities.) It just didn't fly with this group, at all. As a result, they no longer have any interest in playing D20.

If 4e changes that, then I for one would certainly regard it as a good thing.

I gotta agree here. The magic system has been a bar to me gaining some new players as well, even those familiar with some older fantasy works. I mean, I'm a big Elric fan, but D&D does a very poor job of simulating it, or many of the other fantasy novels I've read. I understand the game needs to consider balance first, but i don't see why that can't be accomplished in another manner.

 

[Wanderer20]

Let's not forget that D&D has adapted throughout its existence - even when it was just Gary doing the bulk of work for it. There's some significant differences between his original writings on the game and later work.

Consider, in oD&D, it's explicitly stated that there shouldn't be a problem with Monster PCs, which is then contradicted in AD&D. In AD&D (DMG) it's noted that a random social class table would be of little use... and the table turns up in Unearthed Arcana!

Being first can only take you so far, especially when you start measuring a product's life in decades.

Cheers!

I promise you that I'll buy every single 4E book, next decade, when it'll have proved the change worthy.

Unless 6E will be out by that time, of course.

 

[Imaro]

I gotta agree here. The magic system has been a bar to me gaining some new players as well, even those familiar with some older fantasy works. I mean, I'm a big Elric fan, but D&D does a very poor job of simulating it, or many of the other fantasy novels I've read. I understand the game needs to consider balance first, but i don't see why that can't be accomplished in another manner.

This is something I don't get...There is an Elric game out by Mongoose Publishing. Also I think you can come up with a pretty close approximation of the Elric magic system (except for maybe Dreamthievery) by selecting only spells that you feel fit the tone of the Young Kingdoms...and makng those higher than say 4th or 5th level only available through incantations from UA.

I've seen alot of people compare the forthcoming warlock to Elric, and I have to say, I just don't see it. Elric doesn't sling any type of magic left and right. His powerful spell(s)...does he even cast more than one powerful spell?... involve long arduous rituals, and most if not all of the off the cuff spells he casts are minor magics at best. Elric relies far more heavily on Stormbringer (a magic weapon) than he does on throwing around magic bolts at whim. IMHO Elric is more a Fighter(heavily invested)/wizard (only a few levels) multiclass...and he's suppose to be the most powerful sorcerer of his age.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

This is something I don't get...There is an Elric game out by Mongoose Publishing. Also I think you can come up with a pretty close approximation of the Elric magic system (except for maybe Dreamthievery) by selecting only spells that you feel fit the tone of the Young Kingdoms...and makng those higher than say 4th or 5th level only available through incantations from UA.

I agree.

Incantations are the sleeper hit mechanic of 3e. Allow the PC to use the incantation for 10% of the XP cost (or 0 xp cost!) if they take a feat for it that is specific to each incantation. So you'd need three feats for three incantations to be cast at reduced XP cost. Now only permit them to learn the feat if they fine some ancient book or whatever (which is how they're supposed to learn the incantation in the first place). Presto!

For a higher magic version, strip down the wizard spells castable to the point where they're getting 3rd or 4th level spells by level 20. Then give the wizard feats every other level, in addition to the ones they already have. Raise BAB and HD equal to the cleric's, give the wizard a few martial weapon proficiencies, and give them a good REF save. Add leather armor if desired. A nice Elric-type character, similar to the Hexblade.

 

[Midknightsun]

This is something I don't get...There is an Elric game out by Mongoose Publishing. Also I think you can come up with a pretty close approximation of the Elric magic system (except for maybe Dreamthievery) by selecting only spells that you feel fit the tone of the Young Kingdoms...and makng those higher than say 4th or 5th level only available through incantations from UA.

I've seen alot of people compare the forthcoming warlock to Elric, and I have to say, I just don't see it. Elric doesn't sling any type of magic left and right. His powerful spell(s)...does he even cast more than one powerful spell?... involve long arduous rituals, and most if not all of the off the cuff spells he casts are minor magics at best. Elric relies far more heavily on Stormbringer (a magic weapon) than he does on throwing around magic bolts at whim. IMHO Elric is more a Fighter(heavily invested)/wizard (only a few levels) multiclass...and he's suppose to be the most powerful sorcerer of his age.

The Elric plug was just an example. There are many others. My point was that D&D has never modeled old or new fiction very well. Its its own animal, and pretty much always has been. An incestuous animal at that. Saying that I can flip this, flop that, turn somethingeranother on its side and squint makes it all work okay for whatever genre is like saying it doesn't really do that type of genre well unless you houserule it (which can be said of just about any system, so becomes a largely meaningless claim) . . . which gets back to the point that D&D was never really modelled on anything but D&D after its initial iteration. Yeah, there were certainly inspirations, but I don't think that's the same argument/issue. And that's fine and all, but to say D&D can't change or evolve (not saying you are saying this), is pretty funny considering its done nothing but change over its history, despite some common carry over points.

 

[Imaro]

I want to take my Elric analogy a little further, since contemplating it has led me to what I believe may be a major concern for most people who don't like the direction D&D is going in.

IMHO, D&D 3.5 straddles a line between older fantasy and newer fantasy...did it do either very well out the box...I'd say no. What it did do was create a happy medium where those who liked either could purchase supplements(Bo9S, UA, Tome of Magic, Magic of Incarnum, etc.) or houserule to reach the type of feel they wanted...and this, again IMHO, is the greatest strength of D&D. By making the 3e rules straddle this line they made a system that could be tweaked to reach the point many wanted and thus had a more general appeal.

My limited impressions of 4e so far don't feel the same. It feels that the core rules are definitely taking a turn to fully supporting a particular type of fantasy influence, mainly more modern takes. This means instead of the minor tweaking or rules changes one had to do for 3.5, there will probably be greater overhauls involved for those that want to emulate a particular style. The risk 4e takes is in becoming a niche product that no longer has mass appeal and which I think games such as Exalted, Scion and their ilk will be main competitors. I already play these games so if 4e can't offer me something I don't get from them...why buy it? Meanwhile it will also risk distancing or even forcing DM's who like a different style to search elsewhere.