Spoilers Agatha All Along discussion

[Zaukrie]

Episode 8 was pretty good and gave the series some badly needed emotional gravitas. But then episode 9 went, "nope, none of that really mattered - it was just another origin story." Sign. MCU's Gotta MCU.

What are you talking about? Several people died, and nothing mattered? One witch got her power back, and nothing mattered?

 

[Umbran]

But then episode 9 went, "nope, none of that really mattered - it was just another origin story." Sign. MCU's Gotta MCU.

I've stopped seeing this as a particularly valid criticism.

Does a story somehow only matter if it is isolated, and that none of its events feed into later narrative? Quite the opposite! At the moment, the entire Moon Knight series has no real connection with the MCU - it might as well not have happened at all! That's the poster child for a story that doesn't matter.

Indeed, that these events are going to have further impact should be seen as making them mean more, not less. People died. Billy feels remorse and responsibility for that. If Billy moves forwards as a character, and they include the impact on him, that matters.

 

[Clint_L]

What are you talking about? Several people died, and nothing mattered? One witch got her power back, and nothing mattered?

In the context of the underlying dramatic problem, none of that mattered. Nothing mattered in this story. None of those characters were important. Agatha All Along exists to set up another story. There's no dramatic weight to it. No stakes.

Stories don't matter because they lead to another story. They matter because they have something to say. What did Agatha All Along have to say? What meaningful choices did characters make?

The big, meaningful choice that it seemed like Agatha was making was to finally put someone ahead of herself. But no, she's back a few minutes later, and arguably better than ever.

I've stopped seeing this as a particularly valid criticism.

Does a story somehow only matter if it is isolated, and that none of its events feed into later narrative? Quite the opposite! At the moment, the entire Moon Knight series has no real connection with the MCU - it might as well not have happened at all! That's the poster child for a story that doesn't matter.

How so? Stories only matter if they have sequels? I mean, Hamlet 2 is pretty hilarious, but the original doesn't need it. Moon Knight doesn't matter because it was designed to be part of another story and then dropped (see The Eternals). A good story has something to say on its own.

Indeed, that these events are going to have further impact should be seen as making them mean more, not less. People died. Billy feels remorse and responsibility for that. If Billy moves forwards as a character, and they include the impact on him, that matters.

Okay, so maybe in the future it will matter. If I also watch that show.

 

[Ryujin]

I've stopped seeing this as a particularly valid criticism.

Does a story somehow only matter if it is isolated, and that none of its events feed into later narrative? Quite the opposite! At the moment, the entire Moon Knight series has no real connection with the MCU - it might as well not have happened at all! That's the poster child for a story that doesn't matter.

Indeed, that these events are going to have further impact should be seen as making them mean more, not less. People died. Billy feels remorse and responsibility for that. If Billy moves forwards as a character, and they include the impact on him, that matters.

It does seem to more than vaguely be a criticism of the strategy that has made Marvel an entertainment juggernaut, doesn't it? They started by making us care about the individual characters. After that, they brought those characters together, while still referencing events that had gone before. Finally, they let those stories run their course, while also using them to spawn new characters. This methodology has made them literal billions of dollars.

 

[Zaukrie]

In the context of the underlying dramatic problem, none of that mattered. Nothing mattered in this story. None of those characters were important. Agatha All Along exists to set up another story. There's no dramatic weight to it. No stakes.

Stories don't matter because they lead to another story. They matter because they have something to say. What did Agatha All Along have to say? What meaningful choices did characters make?

The big, meaningful choice that it seemed like Agath was making was to finally put someone ahead of herself. But no, she's back a few minutes later, and arguably better than ever.

How so? Stories only matter if they have sequels? I mean, Hamlet 2 is pretty hilarious, but the original doesn't need it. Moon Knight doesn't matter because it was designed to be part of another story and then dropped (see The Eternals). A good story has something to say on its own.

Okay, so maybe in the future it will matter. If I also watch that show.

It mattered to those characters and the people that knew them. It mattered to Billy. I literally have zero idea what your point is. We clearly won't agree here. Most stories don't "MATTER", they are just things that happened to characters. Why does a story have to some GREAT MEANING and POINT? It doesn't.

 

[Clint_L]

Note: this is not just an Agatha All Along problem, it's a problem that has become emergent across the MCU. For example, Antman: Quantummania is an utterly pointless film. Scott Lang is the same character at the end as he was at the beginning. The main purpose was to unveil the next MCU Big Bad and...oops. If a story doesn't have its own reason for being, it's not a good story.

 

[Clint_L]

It mattered to those characters and the people that knew them. It mattered to Billy. I literally have zero idea what your point is. We clearly won't agree here. Most stories don't "MATTER", they are just things that happened to characters. Why does a story have to some GREAT MEANING and POINT? It doesn't.

Yeah, we definitely are not going to agree.

 

[Umbran]

In the context of the underlying dramatic problem, none of that mattered. Nothing mattered in this story. None of those characters were important.

So, consider Death of a Salesman. In the grand scheme of things, Willy Loman is not important. Indeed, that's his definitional characteristic. That he is unimportant is in his name, "Low-man". His unimportance, and his struggle with it, is what the play is about. In the end, Willy thinks the payout on his life insurance is more valuable than himself.

His story, one of the classics of American theater, doesn't matter? The fates of ordinary people who don't have major impact on the world, don't matter?

There's no dramatic weight to it. No stakes.

Yeah. Tell Lilia that. Oops, you can't, cuz she died. She sacrificed herself for others. No stakes at all for her, though!

 

[Umbran]

Scott Lang is the same character at the end as he was at the beginning.

Neither Billy nor Agatha are the same character coming out of the story as they went in. Billy didn't even know who he really was, and comes out with the weight of deaths on his shoulders. Agatha is dead, and has taken up as Billy's mentor, a thing that would be unthinkable when the show started.

 

[Umbran]

It does seem to more than vaguely be a criticism of the strategy that has made Marvel an entertainment juggernaut, doesn't it? They started by making us care about the individual characters. After that, they brought those characters together, while still referencing events that had gone before. Finally, they let those stories run their course, while also using them to spawn new characters. This methodology has made them literal billions of dollars.

Pretty much, yeah.

Though, I'd reference that they made some of the most enjoyed fiction/media ever made. We collectively loved those movies. The billions of dollars are merely a proxy for that.