D&D General Alignment: the problem is Chaos

[Maxperson]

Yeah, but I like it that way.

For me it also emphasizes that "Neutral Good" is pure Good (G), and the LG and CG are less ethical violations of it, where the highest Good is occasionally sacrificed for the sake of order or independence.

For me it's tomato tomahto, but I prefer the old way slightly because I'm used to most alignments having two letters.

 

[Yaarel]

It depends on the code or the person and I'm going to invoke godw....I mean batmans's law. Batman is highly ordered in both his personal code and his thoughts and actions. He is very lawful, despite going by his individual code, often breaking the law in the process.

Batman is many things to many versions of him.

But to the degree that he is vigilante who imposes his own expectations of what is or is not just, he is extremely Chaotic.

In this context, his personal discipline makes him more autonomous and more effective, and so much more extremely Chaotic.

 

[Maxperson]

My point was, the Moorcock Chaos is about randomness to a degree that is Evil. Therefore, it has little or nothing to do with D&D Chaotic Neutral.

My point is that his chaos is more nuanced than that. He made the extremes evil, but his chaos is simply about change and individualism, which is not inherently good or evil, but can be either one depending on degree. He shows that in his works when he talks about universes where one completely defeated the other and basically are dead universes, and ones where the struggle is balanced and they are both good, and others where one or the other has some amount of dominance and things are getting bad.

Chaos is chaos and law is law, in his writings only the ratio mix can be good or evil. He mostly has evil, because otherwise the Champion wouldn't have anything to struggle against and he is writing a story after all.

 

[Maxperson]

Batman is many things to many versions of him.

But to the degree that he is vigilante who imposes his own expectations of what is or is not just, he is extremely Chaotic.

In this context, his personal discipline makes him more autonomous and more effective, and so much more extremely Chaotic.

His vigilantism is minor compared to the order that is his mind, code and life. He is far more lawful than he is chaotic. Like most people, though, he does have behaviors that are not lawful.

 

[Yaarel]

My point is that his chaos is more nuanced than that. He made the extremes evil, but his chaos is simply about change and individualism, which is not inherently good or evil, but can be either one depending on degree. He shows that in his works when he talks about universes where one completely defeated the other and basically are dead universes, and ones where the struggle is balanced and they are both good, and others where one or the other has some amount of dominance and things are getting bad.

Chaos is chaos and law is law, in his writings only the ratio mix can be good or evil. He mostly has evil, because otherwise the Champion wouldn't have anything to struggle against and he is writing a story after all.

For Moorcock, Chaos is Evil.

Neutral is Good.

Neutral can derive benefit from the randomness of Chaos in order to adapt and evolve and grow, but only if Neutral can balance it. However, Chaos by itself is Evil.

 

[Yaarel]

His vigilantism is minor compared to the order that is his mind, code and life. He is far more lawful than he is chaotic. Like most people, though, he does have behaviors that are not lawful.

Yeah, but his own orderly mind is his own personal, autonomous, independent, mind. He really doesnt care about societal expectations. He is an eccentric in every sense, a maverick, a rogue.

Batman (in some versions of him) personifies D&D Chaotic. He is individualist, first and foremost. Normally he is altruistic, but this too depends on which version of him.

 

[Yaarel]

People who are lazy can be Neutral. They go with the path of least resistance, and are neither reliable (Lawful) nor independent thinking (Chaotic).

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah, but his own orderly mind is his own personal, autonomous, independent, mind. He really doesnt care about societal expectations. He is an eccentric in every sense, a maverick, a rogue.

Batman (in some versions of him) personifies D&D Chaotic. He is individualist, first and foremost. Normally he is altruistic, but this too depends on which version of him.

"Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties. Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it. “Law” implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include closemindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should."

“Chaos” implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them."

I bolded the portions of each that apply to Batman. 5 for lawful and 3 for chaotic. He's more lawful than chaotic

 

[Maxperson]

And then of course this fits Batman to a T.

"Lawful Neutral, “Judge”: A lawful neutral character acts as law, tradition, or a personal code directs her. Order and organization are paramount to her. She may believe in personal order and live by a code or standard, or she may believe in order for all and favor a strong, organized government."

 

[Yaarel]

"Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties. Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it. “Law” implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include closemindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should."

“Chaos” implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them."

I bolded the portions of each that apply to Batman. 5 for lawful and 3 for chaotic. He's more lawful than chaotic

Batman doesnt keep his word. He is often deceptive, secretive, and employs trickery.
Batman doesnt respect authority. He violates laws all the time. He happily pursues and harasses officials.
He could care less if normal citizens uphold "their duties".
Batman violates his own honor due to him, all the time.

Batman lives in cave, spends obscene amounts money, and darts around with his own invented gadgets ... for no other reason except personal freedom.

Batman personifies D&D Chaos.