D&D General Alignment: the problem is Chaos

[Cadence]

Were they though?

I edited that post so many times to try and avoid edition warring... I might shoulda just given up.

 

[Aldarc]

gods do we need a better plane system and better plane entities.

I never saw why 4e even bother with alignment they should have just killed it.

The Dawn War cosmos of 4e was essentially built from the ground-up in conjunction with its new alignment system, so I think that it fits fairly well. It's not perfect though because it still had to reconcile a lot of older lore and shuffle things around in this new version.

On a conceptual and organizational level, I do think that one bizarre issue, which I believe has been discussed in a forum thread in the past year, was the interrelation of the gods with these various outsiders, archdevils, demon lords, etc. This is to say, why bother with having both? What's the functional difference between a demon lord like Orcus and a chaotic evil god like Gruumsh when they occupy an overlapping conceptual space of powerful godlike CE entities?

 

[Mind of tempest]

The Dawn War cosmos of 4e was essentially built from the ground-up in conjunction with its new alignment system, so I think that it fits fairly well. It's not perfect though because it still had to reconcile a lot of older lore and shuffle things around in this new version.

On a conceptual and organizational level, I do think that one bizarre issue, which I believe has been discussed in a forum thread in the past year, was the interrelation of the gods with these various outsiders, archdevils, demon lords, etc. This is to say, why bother with having both? What's the functional difference between a demon lord like Orcus and a chaotic evil god like Gruumsh when they occupy an overlapping conceptual space of powerful godlike CE entities?

I think demon lords are supposed to be more killable, like the archdukes compared to Asmodeus.

 

[Aldarc]

I think demon lords are supposed to be more killable, like the archdukes compared to Asmodeus.

But are they really when they seemingly come back as easily as Saturday morning cartoon villains?* "Oh, no Orcus is back for the 20th time in the past 10 years." Any setting could just about set their calendar to the number of comeback appearances by Orcus and the like. There's not too much of a functional difference between killing a demon lord and the avatar of a CE god.

* Understandably so since D&D wants to continue using their IPs' Rogues' Gallery.

 

[Mind of tempest]

But are they really when they seemingly come back as easily as Saturday morning cartoon villains?* "Oh, no Orcus is back for the 20th time in the past 10 years." There's not too much of a functional difference between killing a demon lord and the avatar of a CE god.

* Understandably so since D&D wants to continue using their IPs' Rogues' Gallery.

there are days when I just want to make my own setting so I can be in charge of it and do things my way but I suck and am too tired to do it.

 

[Aldarc]

I apologize to the OP for this digression of mine.

But I would posit that the problem is not the existence or framing of Chaos as a conflict, but, rather, it's Good.

The existence of Good as an Alignment fundamentally invalidates a lot of actual moral and philosophic complexities in the 5e D&D mythos and cosmology. What is Good? Let's ask Neutral Good, which some would regard as the purest manifestation of Goodness. What is the social value of Law and/or Chaos when objective Good exists? What are the downsides of Good again? Not sure if there are any. The objective existence of Good seems like a winning ticket. What are the actual conflicts, plot hooks, and dramatic tension between Chaotic Good and Lawful Good in the cosmos? Pretty non-existent. Why? Because Good. They seem to mostly either cooperate, peacefully co-exist, or get along. This is what drives the Blood War as the popular metaplot. This is because, repeat after me, Good is boring. Although Gygax likely thought that introducing Good vs. Evil into the mix of Law vs. Chaos would add greater complexity to the game, it ironically had the opposite effect because the existence of Good nullifies a lot of that complexity.

This is also why Michael Moorcock opted to pick up Poul Anderson's use of Law and Chaos. It shifts the debate from Good vs. Evil to something more morally ambiguous.

Additionally, this is also what I appreciate about the color White in the Magic the Gathering. It's not framed as being fundamentally "good." It's framed as being concerned about Morality, which provides a lot of breathing room about questions of goodness, morality, and ethics. White is not necessarily "good," but it does have ideas on goodness, morality, and virtue that it wants to sell you on.

 

[Oofta]

look honestly they still seem super similar and need far greater differences, and that is before we get into the upper plane things which just kinda suck.

They may seem similar to you. The do not to me. Just like to some people a purple worm and dragon are just a pile of stats.

 

[Maxperson]

I think they should have gone further in terms of stripping it then.

If it can be easily and completely ignored, then removing would just be petty spitefulness. At that point you're just doing it to take it away from those who use it and like it.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

look honestly they still seem super similar and need far greater differences, and that is before we get into the upper plane things which just kinda suck.

Powerscore RPG has an amazing set of articles full of information from every edition of D&D on devils, the layers of the Nine Hells, and the Archdukes that went a long way in making me appreciate how different devils are from demons and wanting to use them primarily as noncombatant NPCs in games I run:

Guide to Devils
Guide to the Nine Hells
Guide to Archdevils

I especially recommend that last one. I also recommend Powerscore RPG in general, which is pretty much the first place I go to look for D&D lore on various subjects.

This same author released Emirikol's Guide to Devils on DM's Guild, which is over 200 pages long. I would direct link to it but I'm not sure if we have rules against that here.

 

[Mind of tempest]

They may seem similar to you. The do not to me. Just like to some people a purple worm and dragon are just a pile of stats.

I never said it was the stats but both look and goal which is just make a terrible reality.

Powerscore RPG has an amazing set of articles full of information from every edition of D&D on devils, the layers of the Nine Hells, and the Archdukes that went a long way in making me appreciate how different devils are from demons and wanting to use them primarily as noncombatant NPCs in games I run:

Guide to Devils
Guide to the Nine Hells
Guide to Archdevils

I especially recommend that last one. I also recommend Powerscore RPG in general, which is pretty much the first place I go to look for D&D lore on various subjects.

This same author released Emirikol's Guide to Devils on DM's Guild, which is over 200 pages long. I would direct link to it but I'm not sure if we have rules against that here.

I know those I just see little difference beyond what can be expressed with these.