D&D General Alignment: the problem is Chaos

Has anyone brought up Jakandor? That was a mini-setting that prioritised Law vs Chaos over Good vs Evil, with two very different and opposing cultures that viewed the other's way of life as bizarre and inferior.

The Charonti live in ancient cities that followed a strict meritocracy, which included the stipulation that the state had the right to raise the dead as specialized undead laborers (creating these specific Charonath undead was not an Evil act). The Charonti desire Law because they want to hasten the restoration of their civilization after a plague that only effected magic-users laid waste to their civilization and caused much of their magical knowledge and technology to be forgotten. The Charonti view the Knorr as backwards barbarians with an inefficient and unproductive way of life. The Knorr also interfere with Charonti attempts to recover knowledge from their civilization's ruins, making the Knorr enemies of the Charonti.

The Knorr are a tribal folk with a great emphasis on personal honor and, to borrow an early 5E developer catchphrase, "rulings, not rules" developed by clan meetings to address situations as they arise and examine them individually rather than use standardized legal codes. The Knorr hate Law because they believe that a society that needs strict legal codes is a society full of dishonorable, untrustworthy people that doesn't examine cases on their own merits. There is a greater emphasis on ritual magic as opposed to spellcasting, with a specific set of honor rituals that Knorr characters can use to voluntarily commit themselves to honorable deeds (one example is basically a ritual in which you designate another, trusted person and allow them to place a geas on you). People who reveal themselves dishonorable and untrustworthy are shunned by the community and may be ruled as worthy of banishment by a council meeting. The Knorr oppose the Charonti, believing their civilization embodies everything the Knorr find abhorrent, and take actions to sabotage efforts by Charonti expeditionaries looking to find lost magic and technology from the ruins of Charonti civilization to stifle its reconstruction. The Charonath undead laborers systematically created and used by the Charonti government are especially seen as nightmarish violations of an individual's autonomy.

With all the emphasis on honor and personal codes, it's easy to see that the author of the three-part Jakandor series (Jeff Grub, I believe) did not believe that having a personal code was itself a sign of being Lawful. The core differentiator between Law and Chaos in this setting was "do you believe society should have standardized laws to enforce standards of behavior under threat of punishment and to handle disputes?" The Charonti believe that a society must enforce standardized rules on its citizens, including a requirement that the deceased become the property of the state for use as undead laborers, while the Knorr believe this is a violation of individual liberty and instead want to encourage a society of trustworthy people who can resolve disputes between each other honorably, with the only major authority being a council that makes rulings infrequently and on a case by case basis.

To try and sum it up more succinctly, Jakandor describes Lawful characters as valuing a greater authority that applies its laws equally to everyone with no exceptions, while Chaotic characters are more flexible and look to resolve situations on a case by case basis, turning to a higher authority (one that makes rulings for every specific situation rather than rely on an established standard) only as a last resort (and believing that having to bring in that authority is shameful to the community).
 
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With all that said, I find myself increasingly agreeing with the earlier comment that the terms "Law" and "Chaos" sound like they were created by a Lawful individual. The Knorr are identified in Jakandor as Chaotic, but that sounds like an extreme term to use for people whose point of view boils down to "oppose authority and believe people should handle disagreements between themselves".

...although, the Knorr do also have as a goal the sabotage of another society's attempt to rebuild itself following a plague (because they believe said culture will eventually try to impose its authority on them), so they are actively fighting against the growth of a Lawful society. So I guess actively opposing Lawful society because you think it is inherently bad is Chaotic.

I guess the Knorr are kind of like if one of the various "barbarian" civilizations of Europe saw a nation trying to rebuild itself in the image of the fallen Roman Empire and decided that the Empire sounded awful and anyone who idealizes it as the standard for civilization must be opposed before they start imposing their civilization on others.

EDIT: I'm also thinking that alignments other than Neutral should be outliers, with descriptors like Good, Evil, Lawful, and Chaotic being assigned to exceptional people. D&D has unfortunately been too loose with assigning alignments that should be exceptional. A Neutral Good person is someone who spends a lot of time and money on helping others and thinks about how to best help others in their free time, not just someone who is generally pleasant. A Chaotic person is someone invested in opposing authority in general through direct action and will go wherever they perceive tyranny to fight it, not just someone who dislikes the current ruler and would be satisfied by a different one (so even a "freedom fighter" wouldn't be Chaotic unless upon achieving victory against one tyrant they sought others elsewhere to rally against; without an unending desire to oppose tyrants wherever they are a person is Neutral with Chaotic tendencies at most).

Basically, people with alignments other than Neutral are obsessives who devote most of their waking moments to thinking about or acting towards their causes. Even Neutrality could be taken to an extreme if someone sees strengths and weaknesses in every other alignment and instead seeks to maintain a balance (which is why I'd preferably reserve True Neutral for proponents of the balance and designate most people as Unaligned).
 
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Mind of tempest

(he/him)advocate for 5e psionics
With all that said, I find myself increasingly agreeing with the earlier comment that the terms "Law" and "Chaos" sound like they were created by a Lawful individual. The Knorr are identified in Jakandor as Chaotic, but that sounds like an extreme term to use for people whose point of view boils down to "oppose authority and believe people should handle disagreements between themselves".

...although, the Knorr do also have as a goal the sabotage of another society's attempt to rebuild itself following a plague (because they believe said culture will eventually try to impose its authority on them), so they are actively fighting against the growth of a Lawful society. So I guess actively opposing Lawful society because you think it is inherently bad is Chaotic.

I guess the Knorr are kind of like if one of the various "barbarian" civilizations of Europe saw a nation trying to rebuild itself in the image of the fallen Roman Empire and decided that the Empire sounded awful and anyone who idealizes it as the standard for civilization must be opposed before they start imposing their civilization on others.
would the conflict not be better-named stasis vs chaos both being things that we would not truly wish but are not by nature evil.
 

Aldarc

Legend
With all that said, I find myself increasingly agreeing with the earlier comment that the terms "Law" and "Chaos" sound like they were created by a Lawful individual.
I can't say that I agree. Moorcock may have not invented the terms Law and Chaos, but he definitely popularized them. Philosophically, he is a self-proclaimed Anarchist with a fair share of criticisms of conservative and fascist elements in fantasy and even going as far as calling Tolkien a "crypto-fascist."
 

I can't say that I agree. Moorcock may have not invented the terms Law and Chaos, but he definitely popularized them. Philosophically, he is a self-proclaimed Anarchist with a fair share of criticisms of conservative and fascist elements in fantasy and even going as far as calling Tolkien a "crypto-fascist."
Interesting to learn, and a bit surprising given that the Lords of Chaos in his own work seemed pretty evil.
 


Aldarc

Legend
Interesting to learn, and a bit surprising given that the Lords of Chaos in his own work seemed pretty evil.
In Moorcock's own words:
My books frequently deal with aristocratic heroes, gods and so forth. All of them end on a note which often states quite baldly that one should serve neither gods nor masters but become one’s own master. This is a constant theme throughout all my fiction. Philosophically I, together with my protagonists (where I identify with them) seek to find a balance between Law and Chaos. Frequently my characters achieve that balance by refusing to serve anything but their own consciences.
 

Horwath

Legend
I do not think that chaos is the problem,

Most people are chaotic or leaning towards it.

Also most people are good or leaning towards it.

So Chaotic Good is kinda default alignment of humans. Or atleast from my perspective.

Most will help strangers if that help does not require big sacrifice from helpers side. And more you know the person, more risk/cost for yourself are willing to put up to help them.

Also most people break any laws that do not have any significant penalty or do not harm other people by doing so simply by believing that they are in the right and "The Man" is in the wrong.

traffic laws are prime example. Everyone breaks any traffic law that they can get away with.
OK, not literally everyone, but 90% do :D

No one would pay any taxes if they could get away with it. Yet all expect government serves.
 

Mind of tempest

(he/him)advocate for 5e psionics
I do not think that chaos is the problem,

Most people are chaotic or leaning towards it.

Also most people are good or leaning towards it.

So Chaotic Good is kinda default alignment of humans. Or atleast from my perspective.

Most will help strangers if that help does not require big sacrifice from helpers side. And more you know the person, more risk/cost for yourself are willing to put up to help them.

Also most people break any laws that do not have any significant penalty or do not harm other people by doing so simply by believing that they are in the right and "The Man" is in the wrong.

traffic laws are prime example. Everyone breaks any traffic law that they can get away with.
OK, not literally everyone, but 90% do :D

No one would pay any taxes if they could get away with it. Yet all expect government serves.
I think you know different people to me, I, for instance, am between true neutral natural evil.
 


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