Alter Self

[The_lone_gunman]

Alter self gives the user the water breathing ability if the creature you are altering into has that. Would it also give darkvision? It would seem that if you alter self into a duergar or other underdark humanoid that you would by using the same logic of the waterbreathing. I mean if you get the gills why wouldn't you get the eyes?

Any thoughts?

TLG

 

[Magus_Jerel]

mmmm - alter self is no substitute for the darkvision spell mind you.

Water breathing can be due to a "gross physical capacity" - in this case gills, just like flight can be due to a "gross physical capacity" - wings.

Vision - doesn't work that way - and along that line of logic - I would say that sight-oriented abilites can't be granted by the spell.

 

[Volefisk]

Water breathing can be due to a "gross physical capacity" - in this case gills, just like flight can be due to a "gross physical capacity" - wings.

Vision - doesn't work that way - and along that line of logic - I would say that sight-oriented abilites can't be granted by the spell.

I found this a very interesting comment, because it reveals a very different way of thinking about the source of D&D sight-oriented abilities. One I hadn't considered before.

If sight-oriented abilities aren't the product of physical differences in the eye (more rods than cones, for example) or brain, then what are their origin? Darkvision is an extraordinary ability, correct? - It isn't the product of magic, it's inherent in the form (like a bat using it's specialized anatomy to achieve Blindsight in the form of echo location).

Have I missed something?

<Volefisk>

 

[Thanee]

I also think you should be able to gain Darkvision or even moreso Low Light Vision this way.

The difference is still the duration of the two spells (Alter Self to Darkvision), altho Alter Self really seems a little powerful at its level, but that's true for most of the polymorph spells.

One thing, tho, you do not change into another creature with Alter Self, you change your own body slightly, like adding gills for water breathing or adding wings for flight. So you cannot change into a duergar or something, but you could alter your eyes to see in the dark.

Bye
Thanee

 

[FANGO]

It seems to me that low-light vision would be gettable with alter self, since many animals have it and such, but I can't think of anything "natural" that has darkvision (I'm probably wrong, but I just can't think of anything that does right now, even giant owls, which are not natural and are supposed to have better eyes than regular owls, only have "improved low-light vision"). Also, low-light vision isn't very unbalancing to have, I would say, whereas darkvision may be (if you ask some Nazi DM-type...I personally don't care about it for that reason, but we'll get on to why I don't like it), and also there is already a spell to take care of darkvision so you ought to give priority to that.

On a side note, I would probably not allow the blindsight ability of bats to be gained through alter self, because this would require a substantial reworking of the brain in ways that modern science still is not quite sure of (there have been numerous experiments conducted with bats showing the complexity of their echolocation systems...it's really quite spectacular to see some of the things that these critters can do), whereas with low-light vision it's probably just a matter of shoving a few more rods in there.

 

[Thanee]

About natural Darkvision... How about Dwarfs?

Blindsight would be a bit much (mainly from a balance point of view), really!

Bye
Thanee

 

[med stud]

It seems to me that low-light vision would be gettable with alter self, since many animals have it and such, but I can't think of anything "natural" that has darkvision (I'm probably wrong, but I just can't think of anything that does right now, even giant owls, which are not natural and are supposed to have better eyes than regular owls, only have "improved low-light vision"). Also, low-light vision isn't very unbalancing to have, I would say, whereas darkvision may be (if you ask some Nazi DM-type...I personally don't care about it for that reason, but we'll get on to why I don't like it), and also there is already a spell to take care of darkvision so you ought to give priority to that.

On a side note, I would probably not allow the blindsight ability of bats to be gained through alter self, because this would require a substantial reworking of the brain in ways that modern science still is not quite sure of (there have been numerous experiments conducted with bats showing the complexity of their echolocation systems...it's really quite spectacular to see some of the things that these critters can do), whereas with low-light vision it's probably just a matter of shoving a few more rods in there.

The way the eyes work is that light waves hit a certain element in your cones or rods, that split when exposed to a certain wave length. When the element splits, it activates the occular nerve that makes you see that colour. Human eyes have elements for blue, green and red. It is not unthinkable that some creature would have an element for infra-red waves that let's it see heat blue.

This is from a scientific POV, but never let reallity stand above the rules

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

From a scientific PoV, Infravision doesn't work. There's a lot more infrared energy than light energy about, so all you'd see if a blinding white background. Plus, you have to find a way to keep your eyeballs cool, etc.

I think this is why they replaced Infravision with Darkvision. They never explained how Darkvision works, but I don't think its very natural (do it however you want in your campaign though).

PS Does anyone know how to remain logged in for more than one post at a time?

 

[Iku Rex]

Several Sage answers on Alter Self can be found here: http://homepage.mac.com/guyf/DnD/Sage/PolymorphAlterSelf.html

Note that the Alter Self questions are a little jumbled up with thePolymorph Other questions.

 

[Volefisk]

Blindsight would be a bit much (mainly from a balance point of view), really!

Yup. I'd make that call too. I was only trying to use it as an example of a sight ability being the product of specialized anatomy, not as a suggestion for Alter Self.

<volefisk>