D&D (2024) Am I crazy, or did they just turn Stealth into full Ninja mode?

[Bill Zebub]

I don't think a condition is the way to go, but if it is then it needs to describe something you are doing in an ongoing way. Like "Hiding".

Maybe treat Hide structurally like a spell? You take the Hide action, with a detection DC set to 8 + Ability(Stealth). (It might be Dex or another stat.). Then you concentrate, and each round enemies must make an ability check to spot you, and when they do, or you take an action that ends the effect, or have concentration broken, you are no longer Hiding.

 

[MarkB]

* for example, how do you want to calculate all senses (sight, smell, hearing, touch) which may be different when detecting a creature, do creatures like dogs completely nullify invisibility or stealth, what is the penalty? What about lighting? Stuff to hide behind, footprints, just how much of a penalty do you get for armor or gear (backpacks with gear hanging off is noisy), etc. etc. etc.

Yeah, one thing I already don't like about the current playtest version is becoming detected "if you make a sound louder than a whisper". Just as stealth rules need to take into account ambient lighting, they should also take into account ambient noise. There are plenty of situations in which even normal spoken conversation would be drowned out by the background noise.

 

[Incenjucar]

I find the whole "condition" thing is weird and backward. Stealth is relative to the observer unless you're talking about some kind of magical effect like "you are immune to AOE attacks as long as nobody can see you".

 

[Bill Zebub]

As I said up-thread, I think WotC just has to accept the fact they are going to need to devote more than one paragraph to Stealth.

 

[Stalker0]

Alright lets try this again, lets see if we can write up a pretty solid Stealth paragraph to cover the core things. Its not going to cover EVERY SINGLE little thing players can think of, but lets at least cover the stuff that comes up in like 90% of games that use stealth.

Stealth (Action)
A character rolls a Dexterity (Stealth) check, and acquires the Hidden Condition against all creatures that meet the following criteria:

• The creature cannot fully perceive you due to cover, total cover, or total concealment. Note that special vision and senses may negate the effects of concealment.
  • Optional: A DM may rule that a distracted creature counts for this criteria.
• Their passive perception score is lower than your dexterity (stealth) check.

Special: You cannot take this action more than once every 10 minutes., unless you lose the hidden condition against a creature.

Hidden (Condition)
This condition occurs between you and each specific other creature. It is possible to be hidden against some creatures, but not others. You are never hidden from yourself. You gain none of the benefits listed here against creatures you are not hidden against.

• You have advantage on attacks
• Creatures have disadvantage on attacks against you.
• You cannot be hit by spells that have you as a target.
• If you move, creatures do not know the location you have moved to, unless informed through some other means.

Losing the Hidden Condition
You lose the hidden condition when the following occurs.

• You make a sound larger than a whisper within hearing range of a creature.
• You make an attack
• You cast a spell with V components.
• At any point, you no longer have any cover or concealment against a creature.
• A creature's passive perception increases enough to beat your dexterity (stealth) check.

If an action caused you to lose the hidden condition, you complete the action before losing the condition. If it was movement, you may still complete 1 action (including spells and multiple attacks) with the benefits of the hidden condition before the end of your turn. The enemy is aware of any further movement conducted once the condition is lost.

Perception (Action)
Roll a wisdom (perception) check. If this check is higher than your passive perception, it becomes your passive perception for either 1 minute, or until the end of an encounter, whichever is longer.

Special: You cannot take this action more than once every 10 minutes, unless you are in an encounter with a known hidden creature.

 

[MarkB]

Alright lets try this again, lets see if we can write up a pretty solid Stealth paragraph to cover the core things. Its not going to cover EVERY SINGLE little thing players can think of, but lets at least cover the stuff that comes up in like 90% of games that use stealth.

Stealth (Action)
A character rolls a Dexterity (Stealth) check, and acquires the Hidden Condition against all creatures that meet the following criteria:

• The creature cannot fully perceive you due to cover, total cover, or total concealment. Note that special vision and senses may negate the effects of concealment.
  • Optional: A DM may rule that a distracted creature counts for this criteria.
• Their passive perception score is lower than your dexterity (stealth) check.

Special: You cannot take this action more than once every 10 minutes., unless you lose the hidden condition against a creature.

Hidden (Condition)
This condition occurs between you and each specific other creature. It is possible to be hidden against some creatures, but not others. You are never hidden from yourself. You gain none of the benefits listed here against creatures you are not hidden against.

• You have advantage on attacks
• Creatures have disadvantage on attacks against you.
• You cannot be hit by spells that have you as a target.
• If you move, creatures do not know the location you have moved to, unless informed through some other means.

Losing the Hidden Condition
You lose the hidden condition when the following occurs.

• You make a sound larger than a whisper within hearing range of a creature.
• You make an attack
• You cast a spell with V components.
• At any point, you no longer have any cover or concealment against a creature.
• A creature's passive perception increases enough to beat your dexterity (stealth) check.

If an action caused you to lose the hidden condition, you complete the action before losing the condition. If it was movement, you may still complete 1 action (including spells and multiple attacks) with the benefits of the hidden condition before the end of your turn. The enemy is aware of any further movement conducted once the condition is lost.

Perception (Action)
Roll a wisdom (perception) check. If this check is higher than your passive perception, it becomes your passive perception for either 1 minute, or until the end of an encounter, whichever is longer.

Special: You cannot take this action more than once every 10 minutes, unless you are in an encounter with a known hidden creature.

Pretty good. I'm not sure the "only once per 10 minutes" clauses are doing any good work here.

The last bullet point under "Losing the Hidden Condition" also needs to account for encountering new creatures with higher passive perception scores, not just existing creatures boosting their scores.

There's also no accounting for range here. These rules work fine in an enclosed environment, but in a more open space, are you just as likely to be spotted by the opponent 300 feet away as the one standing 10 feet from you?

Also, what is a creature's hearing range?

 

[Bill Zebub]

And what’s the definition of “paragraph” here?

 

[Scars Unseen]

So what I would do is this: first and foremost, I'd have certain actions require to be executed under stealth. Sneak attack is a big one, but there are plenty of others one could think of, and I could even see a "rulings not rules" approach to it in some cases. "Sure, you can do that, but it's going to require stealth." Slipping a sedative into the noble's drink, switching a figurine on display with a replica with a clairaudience enchantment on it. That sort of thing. Basically a signal, either in the rules or by the DM, that the player needs to approach this activity in a certain way, game mechanics wise.

Second, I would say that in order to perform a stealthy action, either the one performing the action must be hidden(or concealed, or whatever else you want to call it. Just not invisible, please and thank you) or the target of the action must be distracted. Distracted would be a specific state, similar to hidden in that it generally requires a deliberate action to create, but dissimilar in that it doesn't need to be the one attempting a stealthy action that creates it. So for instance, a bard could have abilities that explicitly say they distract the target (in addition to whatever else they do), and the rogue could then take advantage of that status to get a sneak attack in.

You could then get into the nitty gritty about what actions or under what conditions an enemy might be able to break the hidden condition, whether there may be some actions a character or NPC can make that inherently make them distracted and so on. But that would be the core of a D&D stealth system if I was designing it. It lets stealthy characters do their thing without always having to be going in and out of hiding, and it opens design space for cooperative action between players.

 

[Incenjucar]

It's such a weird video game construction, like someone is trying to make WoW rogues instead of anything that makes sense.

D&D has a bunch of different factors that need to be considered that are poorly served by condition-based logic.

Actor A can see, hear, or otherwise sense Target B.

Actor A can also detect or know Target B's position without having sensory data

Whether or not Target B is being stealthy is only one possible factor affecting these. You can have scenarios such as two invisible characters, one with tremor sense and one with true sight, and they are both in a zone of silence that prevents them from communicating to their allies.

You can also have two characters standing in the path of beams of light, one is invisible using transmutation and the other is invisible to everyone who failed a Wisdom save.

 

[James Gasik]

Pretty good. I'm not sure the "only once per 10 minutes" clauses are doing any good work here.

The last bullet point under "Losing the Hidden Condition" also needs to account for encountering new creatures with higher passive perception scores, not just existing creatures boosting their scores.

There's also no accounting for range here. These rules work fine in an enclosed environment, but in a more open space, are you just as likely to be spotted by the opponent 300 feet away as the one standing 10 feet from you?

Also, what is a creature's hearing range?

Hearing, nothing, what's their smelling range?