D&D (2024) Am I crazy, or did they just turn Stealth into full Ninja mode?

[Charlaquin]

It's such a weird video game construction, like someone is trying to make WoW rogues instead of anything that makes sense.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. They’re trying to render the stealth rules in a way that their VTT will be able to execute.

 

[Charlaquin]

Pathfinder 2e actually has two conditions related to hiding, which functionally produces a similar effect to 5e Stealth: Specifically, when you are sufficiently covered or obscured, you can use the Hide action to become Hidden from any creatures who’s Perception DC you beat with your Stealth check. So far, so normal. However, in PF2, Hidden explicitly means that you can’t be seen by any creatures you are Hidden from, but the do still know your location. Your location is only unknown to creatures from which you are Undetected. If you are Hidden from a creature, you become Undetected by it by using the Sneak action to move to a different location and beating the creature’s Perception DC with a Stealth check.

I don’t love that this ends up making stealth require two separate checks, but what I do really like is that it very explicitly differentiates between “I can’t see you” and “I don’t know where you are.” This resolves a lot of discrepancies between how different DMs handle stealth in 5e, particularly stealth in combat. You can duck behind cover to make yourself unseen, but enemies will still know you’re there… unless you move to another position without being spotted.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

it should be 15 or passive perception of anyone: whatever is higher.

that is, you are invisible for all that you "hit" their passive perception.

Base of 15 is just so not all can do it consistently(read, you need expertise and good dex. As it should be).

wood elves should get lower requirements for stealth as half-cover/lightly obscured.

I'm a nearing 50 overweight lifetime nerd and I am constantly scaring the crap out of people because they can't hear me walking up behind them. I'm not even trying to be sneaky, I'm just a quiet walker

15 is way too high a baseline.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Alright lets try this again, lets see if we can write up a pretty solid Stealth paragraph to cover the core things. Its not going to cover EVERY SINGLE little thing players can think of, but lets at least cover the stuff that comes up in like 90% of games that use stealth.

Stealth (Action)
A character rolls a Dexterity (Stealth) check, and acquires the Hidden Condition against all creatures that meet the following criteria:

• The creature cannot fully perceive you due to cover, total cover, or total concealment. Note that special vision and senses may negate the effects of concealment.
  • Optional: A DM may rule that a distracted creature counts for this criteria.
• Their passive perception score is lower than your dexterity (stealth) check.

Special: You cannot take this action more than once every 10 minutes., unless you lose the hidden condition against a creature.

Hidden (Condition)
This condition occurs between you and each specific other creature. It is possible to be hidden against some creatures, but not others. You are never hidden from yourself. You gain none of the benefits listed here against creatures you are not hidden against.

• You have advantage on attacks
• Creatures have disadvantage on attacks against you.
• You cannot be hit by spells that have you as a target.
• If you move, creatures do not know the location you have moved to, unless informed through some other means.

Losing the Hidden Condition
You lose the hidden condition when the following occurs.

• You make a sound larger than a whisper within hearing range of a creature.
• You make an attack
• You cast a spell with V components.
• At any point, you no longer have any cover or concealment against a creature.
• A creature's passive perception increases enough to beat your dexterity (stealth) check.

If an action caused you to lose the hidden condition, you complete the action before losing the condition. If it was movement, you may still complete 1 action (including spells and multiple attacks) with the benefits of the hidden condition before the end of your turn. The enemy is aware of any further movement conducted once the condition is lost.

Perception (Action)
Roll a wisdom (perception) check. If this check is higher than your passive perception, it becomes your passive perception for either 1 minute, or until the end of an encounter, whichever is longer.

Special: You cannot take this action more than once every 10 minutes, unless you are in an encounter with a known hidden creature.

With those rules it seems like you can't do a classic backstab. You would become unhidden as soon as you step from behind your cover. Melee rogues should have a basic ability to sneak attack solo.

 

[Incenjucar]

I think you hit the nail on the head here. They’re trying to render the stealth rules in a way that their VTT will be able to execute.

If this is the case, it's a terrible sign for their VTT. It is not difficult to record separate detection statuses for each NPC.

 

[Stalker0]

With those rules it seems like you can't do a classic backstab. You would become unhidden as soon as you step from behind your cover. Melee rogues should have a basic ability to sneak attack solo.

If you read a little closer, I put in a specific clause for that. If you become unhidden due to movement, you can still conduct one action as if you were hidden (which would allow for the sneak attack).

 

[FrogReaver]

a stealth check is supposed to tell us whether you get spotted - but we don’t typically want resolve stealth as a role for every NPC.

Essentially passive perception or set dc to 15 are used to approximate the scene dc. Except neither of them do a particularly good job there. See the drunk enemy or exceptionally well lit camp, etc.

Also, Stealth scenes have a tendency of leading to another stealth scene, which drastically increases your chances of overall failure. Needing multiple successes to achieve your goal is rough.

As such I’d suggest we completely rework stealth. Instead give ‘scout’ and ‘infiltrate’ and ‘evade’ actions that sometimes use your stealth skill. Set a dc for the whole scene based on your goal and course of action.

 

[James Gasik]

a stealth check is supposed to tell us whether you get spotted - but we don’t typically want resolve stealth as a role for every NPC.

Essentially passive perception or set dc to 15 are used to approximate the scene dc. Except neither of them do a particularly good job there. See the drunk enemy or exceptionally well lit camp, etc.

Also, Stealth scenes have a tendency of leading to another stealth scene, which drastically increases your chances of overall failure. Needing multiple successes to achieve your goal is rough.

As such I’d suggest we completely rework stealth. Instead give ‘scout’ and ‘infiltrate’ and ‘evade’ actions that sometimes use your stealth skill. Set a dc for the whole scene based on your goal and course of action.

Or don't forget the classic, "Oh you're trying to sneak into the bandit camp? Let's check to see if you sneak past 20 bandits."

 

[Charlaquin]

a stealth check is supposed to tell us whether you get spotted - but we don’t typically want resolve stealth as a role for every NPC.

Essentially passive perception or set dc to 15 are used to approximate the scene dc. Except neither of them do a particularly good job there. See the drunk enemy or exceptionally well lit camp, etc.

Well, the drunk enemy should have disadvantage (-5) on their passive Perception, and the sneaking character may have a hard time getting the necessary conditions to hide in the well-lit camp and/or may have disadvantage on their stealth check. I do agree that the set DC 15 doesn’t do a good job though.

Also, Stealth scenes have a tendency of leading to another stealth scene, which drastically increases your chances of overall failure. Needing multiple successes to achieve your goal is rough.

Another problem solved by only calling for checks when the outcome is immediately relevant.

As such I’d suggest we completely rework stealth. Instead give ‘scout’ and ‘infiltrate’ and ‘evade’ actions that sometimes use your stealth skill. Set a dc for the whole scene based on your goal and course of action.

I do think scouting could make a good travel action, and maybe an exploration action as well.

 

[Charlaquin]

Or don't forget the classic, "Oh you're trying to sneak into the bandit camp? Let's check to see if you sneak past 20 bandits."

That’s where one check against many passive scores comes in handy.