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Ampersand: Sneak Attack

Cadfan said:
I've done some fighting in the past. I'm just guessing, but I can probably hurt someone the most with a kick to the pelvis. For some odd reason, I've never been in a fight where I kicked the other guy in the pelvis 12 times in a row, while never attacking him with my hands. That's what happens if you allow everything as an at will attack. It isn't realistic that you would use only your best possible attack, over and over. The ebb and flow of the fight will force you to use other, less optimal choices. I think its fine to represent this with a selection of at will abilities, some situational abilities, and some abilities you can only use a limited number of times. That's the least cumbersome way I can come up with to mimic something like how often in a fight you can throw a heavy kick instead of a quick jab.

I'm going to disagree. The way I see it, you could try to kick the guy in the pelvis twelve times in a row (or some other maneuver), but chose not to. Why? Probably, because of risks or other circumstances. Most likely,
a) You recognized the risk of your opponent catching on making him more likely to avoid your attack or worse come up with a counter that exploits your maneuver making you more vulnerable to their attack and/or placing you in a vulnerable position.

b) recognizing that while you might have access to the target area it was decreased by positioning or some other factor that would have decreased accuracy and you run the risk of being off target.

c) positioning or distance make it impossible to make contact with the target area. You have no way to make contact with the area you want to target. You are just better off trying something else.

d) You have attacks that while not as damaging are more reliable.

Regardless of why you chose not to, there was nothing physically preventing you from trying the attack again. Both A&B might still succeed, but you weighed your options and chose something else, because repeating the attack sequentially just becomes less optimal. However, that doesn't mean that a good opening to reuse the maneuver can't present itself later whether at some random time (e.g., the opponent dropping their guard performing their own maneuver, being fatigued, or being "rocked) or because successfully created an opening using feints and combinations or trying to catch an opponent off guard by "throwing caution to the wind hoping" hoping to catch them flat-footed. Then, there is just being able to reliably reuse your maneuver, because you completely outclass your opponent in terms of combat skill.

Watching MMA's and professional fighting, you will see examples of fighters reusing maneuvers multiple times in a fight. San Shou fighting Champion, Coung Le and former multi-time kickboxing champion, Bill "Superfoot" Wallace are both good examples that come to mind right now. Coung Le routinely and successfully utilizes leg scissor takedowns and grapple/slams against his opponent. He may not utilize them in successive attacks, but he successfully utilizes these multiple times in a round let alone a fight, because he sets his opponent to place himself in position. As for "Superfoot", the guy earned his name, because he only had one good leg, but he could throw kicks at nearly 60mph and he could place those kicks with precision up, over or around his opponent's defenses. He would use a variety of combinations comprised of jab like kicks, hook kicks and roundhouse kicks using the same leg. With both fighters, their opponent's know the technique are going to be coming especially in the case of "Superfoot", but both fighters repeatedly use these maneuvers in an "encounter" and do so successfully.
 

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Greg K said:
Regardless of why you chose not to, there was nothing physically preventing you from trying the attack again. Both A&B might still succeed, but you weighed your options and chose something else, because repeating the attack sequentially just becomes less optimal. However, that doesn't mean that a good opening to reuse the maneuver can't present itself later whether at some random time (e.g., the opponent dropping their guard performing their own maneuver, being fatigued, or being "rocked) or because successfully created an opening using feints and combinations or trying to catch an opponent off guard by "throwing caution to the wind hoping" hoping to catch them flat-footed. Then, there is just being able to reliably reuse your maneuver, because you completely outclass your opponent in terms of combat skill.

This is what action points are for.
 

Greg K said:
I'm going to disagree. The way I see it, you could try to kick the guy in the pelvis twelve times in a row (or some other maneuver), but chose not to. Why? Probably, because of risks or other circumstances. Most likely,
a) You recognized the risk of your opponent catching on making him more likely to avoid your attack or worse come up with a counter that exploits your maneuver making you more vulnerable to their attack and/or placing you in a vulnerable position.

b) recognizing that while you might have access to the target area it was decreased by positioning or some other factor that would have decreased accuracy and you run the risk of being off target.

c) positioning or distance make it impossible to make contact with the target area. You have no way to make contact with the area you want to target. You are just better off trying something else.


d) You have attacks that while not as damaging are more reliable.

Hi Greg K,

I bolded your points b and c above because these are almost exactly what I said in my last post:

I really don't see the problem you guys are having with these encounter and daily powers. I could easily narrate them as a matter of tactical positioning and opportunity. I was in just the right position at just the right time at just the distance to use my rogue's Torturous Strike power. If you want to go even further, narrate it as your swiftblade's Penetrating Blade technique. Our plucky hero didn't use this power again during the encounter because those circumstances did not reproduce themselves for him to use that attack again.​

In other words, he didn't use the "groin kick" again because the same opportunity did not present itself. Likewise, my rogue doesn't use his Torturous Strike again because, once again, the same opportunity did not present itself. He never got into the needed position, his timing was off, he wasn't the right distance, whatever.

Of course, that's not the only possible narration for why encounter powers work the way they do for the martial classes but it certainly is a feasible one and it certainly doesn't suspend disbelief any more than armor class, hit points, or combat rounds do.

Incidentally, I also agree with Campbell that action points should allow you to "refresh" encounter or daily powers.

Laterz.
 

Greg K said:
Why? Probably, because of risks or other circumstances. Most likely,
a) You recognized the risk of your opponent catching on...
b) recognizing that [the target area] was decreased by positioning or some other factor
c) positioning or distance make it impossible to make contact with the target area.
d) You have attacks that while not as damaging are more reliable.

...which perfectly explains at will and per-encounter. :) Whereas you seem to take a direct correlation between "power used" and "can't do it again," what Cadfan and others are saying is that the reason the power isn't used again is due to any one of the above reasons, plus others. "power used" doesn't necessarily mean "physically can't do it again," it rather means, "can't do it effectively."

Besides that, if there is some sort of recharge mechanic available, it works perfectly to what you were saying about fighters that do routinely use the same moves frequently but not repeatedly. If not, then there's still the glossing over that the above reasons do, same as how we've glossed over what hit point damage means for 30 years.


For me, the per-encounter mechanic does cause some stumbling blocks, but specifically in my worries in the game play experience vs. the daily attrition we're used to, never for the in-game reasoning, because there are many real-world and cinematic analogies to explain it.
 


devoblue said:
This is character building, not gaming. How many fighters have ever decided that they wanted to max STR, good CON then DEX, bit of WIS for a will save bonus, dump CHA and INT. Every stat comes out with an even number so there are no odd points wasted.
If this is your strategy, this will hold true using both point buy and randomized systems. The only difference between the two is that in a randomized system you might end up with less or more to work with than the fighter standing next to you.

I'm with Hong on this one. I prefer to have destiny in my own hands.
 
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Lizard said:
I'm going to 3e grognard hell for this, but I think SA with smaller weapons only is more thematically correct and breaks verisimilitude LESS for me. As long as a rogue can wield a greatsword via a feat or 'fighter training', not a problem. I have no problem with Tuffy McStabsyou, Guild Enforcer, shanking an unsuspecting guard with his shortsword (SA damage), then, when the other guard sees him (Tuffy lacks Combat Advantage now), drawing his Sword Of Mighty Hacking (+1 Greatsword) and going at the guard mano-a-mano, using some of his rogue tricks to confound his foe.....:)
This I agree wholeheartedly. I like the idea of using 'the right tool for the job'. And it has been confirmed that you can take rapier as a feat (on the rapier thread) this seems to be the case.
Welcome to the dark side, you cannot resist Lizard....
 

Mourn said:
Except the power explicitly indicates that you attack the target and deal weapon damage, so Fingers will be knifing his boss in this scenario.

I can think of many circumstances where it will be worth it. Nothing says the rogue has to use his best weapon, after all. Depending on other factors, taking 1d6 from a rogue to get a 'free' 20 foot move precisely where you most need to be can be well worth it. Hell, it can be used to escape the monster who is about to do way more damage to you than the rogue could...

Players are like the dinos in Jurassic Park. They find a way. If a rule can be broken, it will be. If a power can be used in an unintended way, it will be.

I'm pretty sure that the developers of City of Heroes didn't intend for the teleport power set to be used to create macro controlled characters called 'Taximan1', but that's what happened. :) (And if you ever want to talk about unintended consequences in game design, I've got one word for you: Holocron Macro Dancers.)

Maybe this IS an intended use. Maybe they want players to be clever and tricky and use powers in wholly unexpected ways, and the game is built to handle it. If so, good design.
 

mach1.9pants said:
This I agree wholeheartedly. I like the idea of using 'the right tool for the job'. And it has been confirmed that you can take rapier as a feat (on the rapier thread) this seems to be the case.
Welcome to the dark side, you cannot resist Lizard....

Wait really, when did someone from WoTC state you could take rapier as a feat?
 

Greg K said:
San Shou fighting Champion, Coung Le and former multi-time kickboxing champion, Bill "Superfoot" Wallace are both good examples that come to mind right now. Coung Le routinely and successfully utilizes leg scissor takedowns and grapple/slams against his opponent. He may not utilize them in successive attacks, but he successfully utilizes these multiple times in a round let alone a fight
Yeah those are at will powers
 

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