Anakin's path to darkness too steep! (SPOILERS)

Menexenus said:
Palpatine told him that in order to find the way to defeat death, he'd have to be stronger with the dark side of the force. Indiscriminant killing is a good way to "rack up dark side points" really fast.
It is like clearing a dungeon for X.P.

But (you might say) that doesn't explain why he slaughtered the defenseless kids that were there
Hello? He is getting X.P. for every evil deed! Can you imagine a BoVD group who got x.p. for killing commoners? No town is safe.

Big Daddy G. said:
How does the Council treat him?

They leave his mother in slavery.
I Agree on this. There may be reasons for her to stay in slavery, but I'm unconvinced
Big Daddy G. said:
They forbid him from getting married. He gets his place on the Council only because Palpatine forced their hand and even then Anikin gets dissed by being denied the rank of master. When he reveals to Yoda that he worried about a loved one dying, he's told to "rejoice" for them.

On the other hand, Palpatine is cool with his being married and is offering him a way to keep his wife (and potentially child, Ani's not sure about that) from dying.

I'd turn. I'd turn even faster. You put the lives of my wife and daughter against the lives of a lot of other people and as far as I'm concerned those other people are in for a very bad (albiet short) day.

Protecting one's family is not a Good act, it is a neuetral act even animals do and can be an evil act [see the ending of the first "Ring"]. The jedi were wise enough to know this and forbid their order from being placed into such situations. Pademe knew about the anakin's evils, but rather than inform the Jedi order of anakin's deeds she protected him leading to the fall of The Jedi order
 
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Ulitmately, the Jedi order betrayed itself. It was Mace Windu choosing the 'easy' way, in trying to just kill Palpatine rather than take him prisoner, that forced Anakin to take sides. He broke the Jedi code, as did the Jedi when they asked Anakin to spy on Palpatine.
 

jaycrockett said:
Ulitmately, the Jedi order betrayed itself. It was Mace Windu choosing the 'easy' way, in trying to just kill Palpatine rather than take him prisoner, that forced Anakin to take sides. He broke the Jedi code, as did the Jedi when they asked Anakin to spy on Palpatine.

They betrayed themselves when they ignored thier instincts and allowed anakin to becom a Jedi.
 

Joshua Dyal said:
It would help if you didn't leave out a number of steps there. Like, his murder of the sand people, his belief that the Jedi are purposefully excluding him from all kinds of things, his convincing that the Jedi are traitors, his constant non-help from exactly those who should have helped him understand what to do, like Yoda or Mace Windu.

He's not just "troubled" and "confused" and if that's all you got out of the movies, you really need to watch all of the prequels again, and wake up this time when they're doing something else besides fighting.

Also, in the novel, his turn wasn't as sudden as it was in the movie. It was more described and drawn out.
 

This was building even from the first movie, when he was afraid of being on his own without his mother. He was a good kid, but he let his fear rule him. That's not to say that it's *wrong* for a young child to be afraid of being separated from their parents. It's quite normal. But with a child who has "phenomenal cosmic power", maybe it's not so cool.

In the second movie....he was conflicted....he was powerful, and chafing at the bit, but the other Jedi kept pulling him back, not trusting him. He experienced strong emotions, but from what I saw, the way that Obi-Wan tried to manage them, by cutting him down, was not the right way to handle that type of person. All it would do is cause resentment, which is exactly what happened....and exactly what Hayden Christensen portrayed in the second movie. Which is kind of funny, because that's what people *complained* about in them movie. In actuality, he was doing exactly what he was supposed to do.

The Jedi didn't trust him. And yes, because of his power, and immaturity, they had reason to act that way. But by treating him like a child, they made the situation worse.

Then his mother died. He couldn't stop it, nobody did anything to help her....and he felt horrible for having abandoned her to a horrible death. And he snapped. Could happen. Except that instead of pulling out a gun and shooting people he had a lightsaber and "phenomenal cosmic power" and butchered an entire tribe of sand people. And because nobody knew about it, they couldn't help him deal with it.

And, finally, in the third movie, he experiences fears of his wife dying. It's already established that he can't deal with loss. He said in the second movie that he would find a way to keep people from dying. A noble goal, but one that leaves us asking.....just how far would he go to keep someone from dying? Pushing himself to the limit? That could be noble. Killing other people to keep another alive? Not so noble..

The council didn't trust him. Especially because of his relationship with Palpatine. They knew he wasn't completely emotionally stable. And his power was growing so quickly that they were probably afraid of giving him a position of power.....because though he had massive powers, he didn't have the wisdom yet to temper their use. But instead of managing it properly, they didn't really explain why they were doing what they were doing. Even when Mace went to confront Palpatine, he just told Anakin to follow orders...but didn't explain *why* those orders were being given. It was like a slap in the face to someone with Anakin's abilities and pride. It showed a fundamental lack of understanding of how to manage people, IMO.

On the other hand, the Emperor was all nice, and gradually began inserting doubts as to the Jedi path. He showed a path that he claimed could save Padme. He made it seem that the Jedi's reticence to teach Anakin everything they knew, because they didn't trust him, might cost his wife her life.

So, Anakin made his choice. I think he was on the knife's edge for a long time. Finally, Palpatine showed him an alternate path, and it met his goals of saving his wife.

Once he made the choice, I believe that cognitive dissonance could have taken care of the rest. He made a decision, and took action which flew contrary to his core beliefs (ie. joining the Dark Side). Because he made that decision, and there wasn't an immediate and tangible reward, he actually adjusted his core beliefs to justify the actions he was now taking. This likely made it easier to take the actions he did.

I suspect the Force had a lot to do with it at all. I think that the Force, light side or dark side, has a way of feeding on and magnifying emotions....more importantly, it gives a powerful means of acting on those emotions.....that's why Jedi teachings said that they had to control their emotions. Think of how paralyzing fear can be. It can make someone freeze even as they are about to be shot, or run over or whatever...even when action could lead to their survival. Or anger.....anger can make people who have loved each other for years say hurtful things to each other than they'd never say in an ordinary day. And that's normal people. Now imagine having phenomenal cosmic power. If someone had that kind of ability, and hadn't been able to master their emotions, then their emotions could take control of them, and they could then enforce a solution on the world around them. I think that's partly what happened to Anakin. If he didn't have a belief that there was a possibility of saving Padme through his abilities, I would be willing to bet he wouldn't have turned.

Anakin was troubled, and taken from his mother after he'd bonded with her, and put in an emotionally "cold" environment, where he may not have received the warmth he was used to receiving. In her absence, this affected his further development. The Jedi didn't have the means of teaching him what he needed to learn, since they were usually trained from an earlier age, where children could be moulded to avoid some of these problems.

It's an incredibly sad story, in a lot of ways. And I don't think that it's an entirely unbelievable character progression. It took 3 movies to get to where Anakin turned. All the movies showed were pivotal events in that development.

Banshee
 

Banshee16 said:
This was building even from the first movie, when he was afraid of being on his own without his mother. He was a good kid, but he let his fear rule him. That's not to say that it's *wrong* for a young child to be afraid of being separated from their parents. It's quite normal. But with a child who has "phenomenal cosmic power", maybe it's not so cool.

In the second movie....he was conflicted....he was powerful, and chafing at the bit, but the other Jedi kept pulling him back, not trusting him. He experienced strong emotions, but from what I saw, the way that Obi-Wan tried to manage them, by cutting him down, was not the right way to handle that type of person. All it would do is cause resentment, which is exactly what happened....and exactly what Hayden Christensen portrayed in the second movie. Which is kind of funny, because that's what people *complained* about in them movie. In actuality, he was doing exactly what he was supposed to do.

The Jedi didn't trust him. And yes, because of his power, and immaturity, they had reason to act that way. But by treating him like a child, they made the situation worse.

Then his mother died. He couldn't stop it, nobody did anything to help her....and he felt horrible for having abandoned her to a horrible death. And he snapped. Could happen. Except that instead of pulling out a gun and shooting people he had a lightsaber and "phenomenal cosmic power" and butchered an entire tribe of sand people. And because nobody knew about it, they couldn't help him deal with it.

And, finally, in the third movie, he experiences fears of his wife dying. It's already established that he can't deal with loss. He said in the second movie that he would find a way to keep people from dying. A noble goal, but one that leaves us asking.....just how far would he go to keep someone from dying? Pushing himself to the limit? That could be noble. Killing other people to keep another alive? Not so noble..

The council didn't trust him. Especially because of his relationship with Palpatine. They knew he wasn't completely emotionally stable. And his power was growing so quickly that they were probably afraid of giving him a position of power.....because though he had massive powers, he didn't have the wisdom yet to temper their use. But instead of managing it properly, they didn't really explain why they were doing what they were doing. Even when Mace went to confront Palpatine, he just told Anakin to follow orders...but didn't explain *why* those orders were being given. It was like a slap in the face to someone with Anakin's abilities and pride. It showed a fundamental lack of understanding of how to manage people, IMO.

On the other hand, the Emperor was all nice, and gradually began inserting doubts as to the Jedi path. He showed a path that he claimed could save Padme. He made it seem that the Jedi's reticence to teach Anakin everything they knew, because they didn't trust him, might cost his wife her life.

So, Anakin made his choice. I think he was on the knife's edge for a long time. Finally, Palpatine showed him an alternate path, and it met his goals of saving his wife.

Once he made the choice, I believe that cognitive dissonance could have taken care of the rest. He made a decision, and took action which flew contrary to his core beliefs (ie. joining the Dark Side). Because he made that decision, and there wasn't an immediate and tangible reward, he actually adjusted his core beliefs to justify the actions he was now taking. This likely made it easier to take the actions he did.

I suspect the Force had a lot to do with it at all. I think that the Force, light side or dark side, has a way of feeding on and magnifying emotions....more importantly, it gives a powerful means of acting on those emotions.....that's why Jedi teachings said that they had to control their emotions. Think of how paralyzing fear can be. It can make someone freeze even as they are about to be shot, or run over or whatever...even when action could lead to their survival. Or anger.....anger can make people who have loved each other for years say hurtful things to each other than they'd never say in an ordinary day. And that's normal people. Now imagine having phenomenal cosmic power. If someone had that kind of ability, and hadn't been able to master their emotions, then their emotions could take control of them, and they could then enforce a solution on the world around them. I think that's partly what happened to Anakin. If he didn't have a belief that there was a possibility of saving Padme through his abilities, I would be willing to bet he wouldn't have turned.

Anakin was troubled, and taken from his mother after he'd bonded with her, and put in an emotionally "cold" environment, where he may not have received the warmth he was used to receiving. In her absence, this affected his further development. The Jedi didn't have the means of teaching him what he needed to learn, since they were usually trained from an earlier age, where children could be moulded to avoid some of these problems.

It's an incredibly sad story, in a lot of ways. And I don't think that it's an entirely unbelievable character progression. It took 3 movies to get to where Anakin turned. All the movies showed were pivotal events in that development.

Banshee

Very well stated.
 

Yes, well stated.

To hijack my own thread... if he's the chosen one, and SO powerful, why is he subordinate to Grand Moff Tarkin in IV?

As to Vader turning back to redemption so quickly... given the gymnastics people have performed to explain Episodes 1-3, it should not be that difficult to do the same for 4-6.

My child lived?
I have twins?
The emperor wants to get rid of me and take my son instead? (a little weak since he proposed to ditch the emperor himself)
My son is calling me back... maybe I should do it... for Padme...
My son didn't kill me and join the emperor, and now he's being killed?
Take the hint about Qui Gonn coming back from the dead (end of III), ObiWan's "death" (in IV) and possibly the 2 of them have been ganging up on him from the "grave"... "You're the chosen one, your job is to destroy the Sith once for all... this is your purpose... all you've done has led you to this..."
 

Phaedrus said:
To hijack my own thread... if he's the chosen one, and SO powerful, why is he subordinate to Grand Moff Tarkin in IV?
I never got the impression that he was. He and Tarkin seemed to be more or less equal at least, and Vader deferred to him in matters relative to the administration of the Death Star and its staff, because of chain of command issues. But Vader over-ruled him, in terms of what to do about Kenobi, if nothing else, and also about going out in his special TIE fighter. I always got the impression that if he had wanted to, Vader could have taken Tarkin out like the chump he was at any time, and not have to worry about repurcussions.
 

Regardless of the internal justification, while I really enjoyed watching the buildup to the fall, the fall itself struck me as stupid, and his actions afterward stupid as well. A coworker nearby said, "Wow, there was some interesting moral ambiguity, right up until Anakin became the biggest idiot in the universe." That summed it up for me.

My own opinion, and not a statement of fact. If it worked for you, then that's wonderful, and you probably had a better two hours and change than I did, which means that you win. :)
 


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