And the title of Episode III is...

[John Crichton]

John, I don't fault your logic, it makes sense to me, but it's not where Lucas seems to be going with things. I was simply trying to provide an explanation tat fits how things are viewed in the movies, and an even number of darksiders and light siders doesn't seem to fit.

Ah, okay. I understand what you were getting at now. I was confuzzled.

Allow me to expand upon my point.

Lucas' intent may not be what I am saying about balance. However, the byproduct still works. Whether or not he meant for the prophecy to mean that the number of Sith and Jedi would even out or not, it still ends up that way. It may not be at the end of Episode III, but A New Hope supports the theory.

Despite what I think the public thinks about Lucas and Star Wars, it's not a light-hearted romp where good always defeats evil. There is a definite darkness to the story and while Empire Strikes Back was dark, Episode III should be darkest. The fall of Anakin Skywalker gives life to the original trilogy. Without Vader, those movies don't exist.

Remember that in Ep1&2 there's a definite implication that things have only got bad recently (if not outright stated), which means they were perfectly fine for a thousand years or so with a drasctic difference in numbers.

I agree that things had been going pretty well for the Republic but the rot that destroys it I'm sure has been going on for at least a 1/2 century. The senators have been squabbling with each other for a bit and the Jedi have been blind to it all.

So the balance will certainly happen in the form of the Purge. The power and influence will even out. And while I do agree that the movies may imply that the darkside unbalances thing, I do think it can be looked at 2 different ways, the other being what I've been saying here. That is one of the cool things about the story, to me. The strength has always been there in that reguard.

 

[Desdichado]

Despite what I think the public thinks about Lucas and Star Wars, it's not a light-hearted romp where good always defeats evil. There is a definite darkness to the story and while Empire Strikes Back was dark, Episode III should be darkest. The fall of Anakin Skywalker gives life to the original trilogy. Without Vader, those movies don't exist.

No, but it is about the ultimate triumph of good over evil. In keeping with the "mythological" slant Lucas says he was going for all along (personally I think that's a crock of sh!+, in his earlier interviews, he talked about trying to follow the old Saturday matinee serials, and only later did he start talking about Joseph Campbell and mythological cycles.) Regardless, serial or myth, good eventually conquers evil. Star Wars is not grim and gritty, it's firmly on the swashbuckling heroics side of things

I agree that things had been going pretty well for the Republic but the rot that destroys it I'm sure has been going on for at least a 1/2 century. The senators have been squabbling with each other for a bit and the Jedi have been blind to it all.

So the balance will certainly happen in the form of the Purge. The power and influence will even out. And while I do agree that the movies may imply that the darkside unbalances thing, I do think it can be looked at 2 different ways, the other being what I've been saying here. That is one of the cool things about the story, to me. The strength has always been there in that reguard.

I think that's a theme as well; the corruption within the Republic is reminiscent (probably on purpose) of the fading of the Roman Empire in terms of a gradual slump into decadance and corruption. Where exactly the Jedi fit into that is unsure, but certainly they have been ineffectual to stop it, and they needed to be removed from the equation to complete the transformation of the corrupt Republic into the Empire.

However, I think the real reason for the near elimination of the Jedi is something George Lucas himself has said many times; the "middle act" is always where you put the heroes in the darkest, worst predicament imaginable, in which you can't see how they get out. And then in the final acts, they do anyway. The elimination of the Jedi in the "middle act" of the grander scheme of things (all six movies together) accomplishes that goal very nicely.

 

[John Crichton]

No, but it is about the ultimate triumph of good over evil. In keeping with the "mythological" slant Lucas says he was going for all along (personally I think that's a crock of sh!+, in his earlier interviews, he talked about trying to follow the old Saturday matinee serials, and only later did he start talking about Joseph Campbell and mythological cycles.) Regardless, serial or myth, good eventually conquers evil. Star Wars is not grim and gritty, it's firmly on the swashbuckling heroics side of things.

I totally agree about good winning out in the end. We already know how it ends, good wins. But good will not win the at the end of Episode III, and that's all I'm talking about with the whole balance thing. As far as the Campbell stuff goes, I've only read some of his writing so I'm no expert but it seems that it follows the path of the Hero pretty well. I could be wrong.

And I wasn't saying that Star Wars is grim and gritty. I'm saying that is has a darkness to it that many people don't acknowledge. That darkness will be fully realized, IMO in this final prequel chapter. It's already being advertised as such by Lucas. I fully admit that I may be reading into things a bit, but that is part of the fun of this. I also think that the movies stand up pretty well to being viewed from multiple angles. This could, again, just be me.

I think that's a theme as well; the corruption within the Republic is reminiscent (probably on purpose) of the fading of the Roman Empire in terms of a gradual slump into decadance and corruption. Where exactly the Jedi fit into that is unsure, but certainly they have been ineffectual to stop it, and they needed to be removed from the equation to complete the transformation of the corrupt Republic into the Empire.

However, I think the real reason for the near elimination of the Jedi is something George Lucas himself has said many times; the "middle act" is always where you put the heroes in the darkest, worst predicament imaginable, in which you can't see how they get out. And then in the final acts, they do anyway. The elimination of the Jedi in the "middle act" of the grander scheme of things (all six movies together) accomplishes that goal very nicely.

I can't wait. The Purge is what I've been waiting to see since I first learned of it, oh so many years ago. So, in keeping with the prequel trilogy's somewhat obtuse titles, "Balance of the Force" could very well work. I don't think it will actually be that, but in my mind and to my reasoning it all makes sense. And this is some of the fun of it. The speculation and mystery has always been one of my favorite things about Star Wars. It's too bad I wasn't old enough to do it for the original trilogy.

 

[Desdichado]

I totally agree about good winning out in the end. We already know how it ends, good wins. But good will not win the at the end of Episode III, and that's all I'm talking about with the whole balance thing. As far as the Campbell stuff goes, I've only read some of his writing so I'm no expert but it seems that it follows the path of the Hero pretty well. I could be wrong.

Yeah, but I'm not really convinced that it does so on purpose. Then again, I'm also not much of a fan of Campbell's thesis. I think it's almost too vague; it's too easy to fit stories into the Campbell Path of the Hero. It's just a requirement of good storytelling that many of his commonalities will occur.

And I wasn't saying that Star Wars is grim and gritty. I'm saying that is has a darkness to it that many people don't acknowledge. That darkness will be fully realized, IMO in this final prequel chapter. It's already being advertised as such by Lucas. I fully admit that I may be reading into things a bit, but that is part of the fun of this. I also think that the movies stand up pretty well to being viewed from multiple angles. This could, again, just be me.

Oh, I agree. I wasn't trying to imply that you were saying Star Wars was Grim and Gritty, especially after the big thread of a week or two ago on Grim and Gritty. I don't know that the darkness is not acknowledged, though. It's been hard to not acknowledge that there's a darkness in the Star Wars movies from the very beginning, and Empire really clinched it.

I can't wait. The Purge is what I've been waiting to see since I first learned of it, oh so many years ago. So, in keeping with the prequel trilogy's somewhat obtuse titles, "Balance of the Force" could very well work. I don't think it will actually be that, but in my mind and to my reasoning it all makes sense. And this is some of the fun of it. The speculation and mystery has always been one of my favorite things about Star Wars. It's too bad I wasn't old enough to do it for the original trilogy.

I agree, it is fun. I still think Rise of the Empire is the best title I've heard, though. Maybe it's simply too obvious, and Lucas won't pick it for that reason.

 

[Taelorn76]

How d4 and Joshua explained the balance thing makes more sense to me the the spinning plate example (sorry Welverin), and I can see the that point of view. But I think we will need to agree to disagree because I see validity in John's point of balance in equal numbers.

He touched on an example of that in A New Hope. There were two of each, Palpatine, Vader and Obi-Wan, Yoda. Luke begins his training to be a Jedi,that brings it up to 3 vs 2, and what happens good old Obi-wan dies, bringing making it all even(balanced) angain.


As for the purge of the Jedi in the next movie, just makes my choice for a title all the more fitting. Fall of the Jedi

 

[Welverin]

How d4 and Joshua explained the balance thing makes more sense to me the the spinning plate example (sorry Welverin),

No need to apologize.

and I can see the that point of view. But I think we will need to agree to disagree because I see validity in John's point of balance in equal numbers.

It's not that John's idea has no validity, it fits in it's own way, it just doesn't seem to be where Lucas is going and is hampered by the fact that prior Palaptine's rise in power and influence and with his death the balance in numbers no longer exists. That leaves a whole lot of unresolvedness floating around and makes Anakin the one who destroys the balance, I'd also give Palapatine more credit for wiping out the jedi.

 

[Taelorn76]

Just running with the whole balance in numbers theme.

What if the Jedi thought there was balance in the Force when they out numbered the Sith, but in reality it was severly off balance. Hence Anakin helps usher in the Jedi purge bringing it down to the numbers mentioned before and thus balancing the Force.

It's late, I'm tired and I hope this still makes sense in the morning.

damn I forgot to pimp my title
Fall of the Jedi

 

[morrolan]

Put me in the camp of liking both theories. A little from column a, a little from column b.

For all practical purposes, I think the spinning plate/healthy body analogy is what most people assume to be the case. After all, Star Wars is nothing if not a pulpy black and white in it morality.

But John's argument has some very definite merits. Remember, the Sith found it necessary to 'balance' their own faction by maintaining a constant of 2 members, Master and Apprentice. This was partly to stop corruption/infighting inside the Sith, and partly to maintain secrecy.

The Jedi pre purge have the same problems with corruption. Someone is running around behind their backs, ordering up Clone armies. Dooku led a group of Jedi in defection, himself turning to the Dark Side. Even Qui-Gon was chafing at the control of the Temple.

So by the end of Episode 6, the Jedi have done just what the Sith did (albeit, not of their own volition). Two left, Luke and Leia, Master and Apprentice. And as a nice bonus, the Sith are gone, removing the cancer from the body-politic. And hey, any coincidence that a pair of orphaned twins founded Rome?

oh, btw; my vote for title: Mask of the Sith.

 

[smetzger]

Hell, I still think "The Phantom Menace" is iffy, and yes, "Attack of the Clones" just bleeping bleeps!

I agree, this is probably for real since is bites just as much as the other two.

 

[John Crichton]

It's not that John's idea has no validity, it fits in it's own way, it just doesn't seem to be where Lucas is going and is hampered by the fact that prior Palaptine's rise in power and influence and with his death the balance in numbers no longer exists. That leaves a whole lot of unresolvedness floating around and makes Anakin the one who destroys the balance, I'd also give Palapatine more credit for wiping out the jedi.

Yeah, Welverin certainly sees where I'm going with this.

I'm going from the angle of general irony and darkness, where one of the most powerful Jedi (Qui-gon) thinks that this Chosen One and prophecy are a boon and it actually turns out to have a sick double meaning. Yes, Anakin does bring balance: in numbers and power by evening out the Jedi and the Sith. And then he does it again by bringing peace (another view of balance) to the Force by eliminating the last of the current Sith. In either case it is fleeting and the balance only happens for a short period of time.

The beauty of it is (as mentioned), Palpatine. He is the great manipulator. Does he twist the prophecy? Does he even know about it? He certainly has a great influence over the events. Was this prophecy actually a Jedi prophecy or did it come from so far in the past that it pre-dates the Jedi and would even come from one who dabbled in the dark side (like Luke) but is still a master?

Even before it was brought up in the comics and EU, I've always wondered if Palpatine saw his own death. He was very powerful and could see many things. The Dark Side (as it always does) did betray him in the end in the form of his pupil. That is a wonderful twist that is already there.