Angel 11-19 *SPOILERS*

[Kahuna Burger]

The first example that comes to mind is that he's always looked out for Dawn's welfare - he's always been protective of her. He even calls her by the affectionate term, "Li'l Bit."

Johnathan

I just loved the time he called her "bitty buffy"

Kahuna Burger

 

[Asmo]

Vocenoctum wrote:

"He was also fairly protective of Dru. He's such an incurable romantic even Death and Soullessness can't stop it"

This is going to sound harsh, but have you forgot the scene when he tries to rape Buffy? That´s not romantic in my book.

Richards wrote:

"The first example that comes to mind is that he's always looked out for Dawn's welfare - he's always been protective of her. He even calls her by the affectionate term, "Li'l Bit."

I was under the impression that Buffy would NEVER have Spike guard Dawn or let him in the house if the chip hadn´t been in his neck.
And come on: we all know why he does all this "good" stuff. he just want to get into Buffy´s pants,ther´s nothing more to it.
I´m absolutely sure that Spike would start killing again as soon the chip were removed.
The fact is that no one trust him except Buffy,and that´s in season 6 when she back from the dead and all dark and moody.
All in my humble opinion.

Asmo

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

I was under the impression that Buffy would NEVER have Spike guard Dawn or let him in the house if the chip hadn´t been in his neck.
And come on: we all know why he does all this "good" stuff. he just want to get into Buffy´s pants,ther´s nothing more to it.
The fact is that no one trust him except Buffy,and that´s in season 6 when she back from the dead and all dark and moody.
All in my humble opinion.

Asmo

Some snipping by me...

It's more than that.

Buffy's change of heart towards Spike came in Season 5, actually. Spike was tortured by Glory to tell what the key was (Dawn) and he refused. This was around the same time that Spike had had a Buffy robot made to satisy his Buffy fixation. The Scoobs found the robot in the same episode as the torturing, and when it was all over, Buffy went to Spike, pretending to be the robot in order to find out why he hadn't betrayed her. He ordered Buffy (thinking she was the robot) not to tell Glory about Dawn, and explained that it would kill Buffy if anything happened to her, and he couldn't let that happen. That was what convinced Buffy that Spike could be trusted with Dawn.

True, if the chip had been removed, all bets were off, but Spike's change of heart was evident by late season 5.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

This is going to sound harsh, but have you forgot the scene when he tries to rape Buffy? That´s not romantic in my book.

I think various responses to that have already been covered. It doesn't fit with the rest of his actions, and while you seem willing to overlook every other thing he's done in favor of that one scene, most of us consider that scene the aberation.... (apparently so does buffy for that matter, as she was intending to put him on Dawn guard duty after it happened.)

I was under the impression that Buffy would NEVER have Spike guard Dawn or let him in the house if the chip hadn´t been in his neck.

if so, she was an idiot. Just because he couldn't physically harm Dawn doesn't mean that when she was in his crypt he couldn't have wandered off and gathered up every big and little bad he felt like. (post chip, pre conversion he made it clear that he could and would do such a thing when Faith was on the loose.) The fact that he couldn't hurt her makes him no better a guard than a chair would make. He was assigned to guard her because he would fight, maybe even die to protect her, and demonstrating that was what made buffy trust him.

And come on: we all know why he does all this "good" stuff. he just want to get into Buffy´s pants,ther´s nothing more to it.

Note that "we all know" is a bad discussion tactic, it is insulting and arrogent. And in this case implies the rest of us think spike is a necrophiliac... Hello? he was doing "good stuff" in spades when buffy was dead! He didn't know they were planning to bring her back, he made it very clear that the others had succeeded in keeping him out of the loop. And yet he was there helping keep sunnydale safe, protecting dawn, and wanting the buffy bot to stop hitting on him.

Spike was no saint, and more importantly still isn't with a soul and without a chip... But I don't understand the argument that his character made no moral changes in what, 2 seasons of developement?

Kahuna burger

 

[Asmo]

Kahuna Burger wrote:

"Note that "we all know" is a bad discussion tactic, it is insulting and arrogent."

If this is the case I will humbly beg you all for forgivness,it was not my intention to insult and be arrogant.

Asmo

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Kahuna Burger wrote:

"Note that "we all know" is a bad discussion tactic, it is insulting and arrogent."

If this is the case I will humbly beg you all for forgivness,it was not my intention to insult and be arrogant.

Asmo

Its also a common phrase which its easy to slip into when arguing, so I try to give everyone at least one good pass.

Kahuan burger

 

[Mercule]

Or, as I once saw related to RPGs, "you can remember all the charts in the PHB, but your parents' anniversary escapes you?"

*chuckle*

My mom's birthday was yesterday. I even called to talk to my dad.

Ran a solo game for my wife last night. Barely had to pick up a book.

*sigh*

I'm not a very good son.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think in Buffy mythology (or at least buffyverse), the lack of a soul does not neccessary mean that a character is evil, but the chances are high.
Vampires tend to have most old character aspects they had (remember harmony? Where`s the difference between harmony with soul and harmony without soul?) with a soul. The soul is not the entire character. I see it as a kind of ... moral restraint.
A person with a soul has certain desires, and he wants to fulfill them. But there are some ways you can´t take to fulfill them. Some, because it is to difficult. Your ratio, your mind could say it won`t be a good idea. (Maybe it is because it is illegal, maybe they way would cost to much or it takes to long).
Your soul, your conscience could also say it won`t be a good idea - it is morally wrong, so you don`t do it, even if it is an easy way.

A vampire has no soul. If he can do a thing and his ratio doesn`t prohibite it, he will do it if he can come through with it, because there is no "thing" that speaks against it. Their ratio might still say that some things would be considered wrong by others, but they don`t care if the ratio also tells them that these guys don`t count. (Maybe Because you have superstrength and sharp teeth, and they don`t.)
Some humans (like the guy that killed Tara) have a soul, but their soul doesn`t tell them their plans and/or motives are wrong.

Both are evil. It is difficult to decide which one is more evil. In Buffy, the concensus seems to be that being without a soul is at least reason enough to kill him. Which makes sense, since it is extremely difficult to give a vampire his soul back. The second type has at least a soul to work with.

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[Viking Bastard]

I've always seen the whole 'without a soul' thing to be
like in real life being a psychopath. I don't mean the cracy
serial-killer-or-action-movie-villain type, but the real life
mental medical condition. Not to be able to put oneself
into other people's shoes and is therefor unable to feel
bad about it.

Now, a psychopath can live a very normal life. He can
'feel', he can love his family and friends very much, but
he won't feel about it if he hurts others, since he doesn't
understand what it feels like. He can't connect his feelings
to the ones of others.

My stepfather is a diagnosed psychopath and he is as
nice guy as they get, but if he ever hurts someone (like,
emotionally) he just doesn't understand how or why.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Vocenoctum wrote:

"He was also fairly protective of Dru. He's such an incurable romantic even Death and Soullessness can't stop it"

This is going to sound harsh, but have you forgot the scene when he tries to rape Buffy? That´s not romantic in my book.

Well, as mentioned, I consider this an abberation. The Almost Rape is atypical for Spike, as well as Buffy. (she just flops around, very unSlayerlike)

But, more so, they had a similar scene when Spike proved that he could hit Buffy. That time it turned into mutual sex.
As well, he didn't actually rape her. There's no telling if/when he'd stop and come to his senses.

But, that's not to defend him. While I liked Buffy (and Angel) overall, the series was so full of plot holes and bad writing at times that it's unimaginable to me to hate some character because of one episode. Overall, Spike was a decent character, except for all that Murder & Mayhem.