Angel 11-19 *SPOILERS*

[Elf Witch]

Well, to me that scene was entirely out of character for where Spike was at the time. It always bothered me. But I do wonder why some people think Spike is unredeemable for that but were ready to redeem him for all his other murders and atrocities. Let's be perfectly honest, Angel and Spike have BOTH been way to evil to be redeemed. Just for watching them we should probably all burn. But they make for fun tv :shrugs::



QUOTE]

You have to remember the mythology of the show when you die and become a vampire your soul leaves the body and is replaced by a demon who has all the person's memories. In Spike and Angel's cases you could almost say that they have to seperate beings living in their body.

 

[RatPunk]

Well, if we're going to go all-out trivia here, she was an ex-watcher. She'd been kicked out. So she wasn't really Gile's replacement at all (nor did she claim to be, she said she was Faith's new watcher). So there

This is true.

Damn, my usually mighty Buffy-Fu has faltered. I must consult the all mighty Episode Guide (Volume 2) and atone for my failure...

 

[Kahuna Burger]

You have to remember the mythology of the show when you die and become a vampire your soul leaves the body and is replaced by a demon who has all the person's memories. In Spike and Angel's cases you could almost say that they have to seperate beings living in their body.

I don't entirely buy it. Sounds like the mythology of the show is more ret conned to fit what they wanted the characters to be like rather than determined in advance and the characters based off of that...

If the soul and the vampire are two different entities, the "soul" would have no memory of what had happened while it was gone. Angel would have basically no angst. Of course if the "soul" is not the personality, we'd better get a meaningful definition fast... The best I can do based on what vampire characters do and don't remember, and what happens in the show is that our soul is just a fancy name for havign a conscience. For some reason thats supernatural in the buffyverse. Well and good except not having a soul doesn't prevent you from having feelings, even tender ones. I knew spike was gonna be a fun character in his very first scene. He's vamping out, talking big about being a slayer killer, all tough, and he hear Dru behind him sounding lost. Instantly he unvamps and comes over all sweet and tender to set her at rights.

We can go back and forth forever on whether Spike actually had real feelings for Buffy prior to his ensoulment (and I'm sure folks with more patience have) but for me his action speak for themselves, both when Glory is torturing him for info and more importantly while buffy is dead.

Honestly, I think soul has the same meaning in the buffy verse that Space time continum had in star trek - "plot". A soul is a plot device which causes angst and determines your place in the story. Spike was a good guy without one, the guy who killed Tara was a monster with one, but the plot says one is a walking target and the other a being of value.

Kahuan burger

 

[Asmo]

Kahuna Burger wrote:

Honestly, I think soul has the same meaning in the buffy verse that Space time continum had in star trek - "plot". A soul is a plot device which causes angst and determines your place in the story. Spike was a good guy without one, the guy who killed Tara was a monster with one, but the plot says one is a walking target and the other a being of value."

When exactly was the soulless Spike a good guy? As I remember he was always the evil plotting vamp,even when he was in "love" with Buffy. If the Initiative hadn´t put the chip in his head he would have killed over and over again,behind Buffys back.
I can´t belive that she didn´t kill him.

Asmo

 

[Richards]

When exactly was the soulless Spike a good guy?

The first example that comes to mind is that he's always looked out for Dawn's welfare - he's always been protective of her. He even calls her by the affectionate term, "Li'l Bit."

Johnathan

 

[Vocenoctum]

The first example that comes to mind is that he's always looked out for Dawn's welfare - he's always been protective of her. He even calls her by the affectionate term, "Li'l Bit."

Johnathan

He was also fairly protective of Dru. He's such an incurable romantic even Death and Soullessness can't stop it

 

[DanMcS]

This is true.

Damn, my usually mighty Buffy-Fu has faltered. I must consult the all mighty Episode Guide (Volume 2) and atone for my failure...

S'ok. Considering that I'm the one that remembered that, I am probably the one with the problem

Or, as I once saw related to RPGs, "you can remember all the charts in the PHB, but your parents' anniversary escapes you?"

 

[John Crichton]

Or, as I once saw related to RPGs, "you can remember all the charts in the PHB, but your parents' anniversary escapes you?"

I've done that.

 

[DanMcS]

I've done that.

Well, obviously. I use the PHB like once a week, minimum, and their anniversary is what, once a year? Pfft. Perfectly understandable.

 

[John Crichton]

Well, obviously. I use the PHB like once a week, minimum, and their anniversary is what, once a year? Pfft. Perfectly understandable.

Works for me. I only mentioned it because it's the one date (out of birthdays and the like of relatives and friends) that I annually forget. * shrugs *