Angel 11-19 *SPOILERS*

[danzig138]

it can't really be Angel IMO. When he has a soul, he's good.

So good that he let Darla and Dru kill a room full of humans,and when confronting Darla and Dru later, even Dru realized that something bad was up, before he torched them. Angel with a soul tends to be good, but he is not so automatically. I could see things twisting at some point that he fights on the wrong side in the end.

 

[DanMcS]

And when he smothered Wesley in a hospital bed.

For some reason, I thought Lindsey was dead. Course, I've been watching the old seasons on TNT, and Lindsey is in them, and really only started watching Angel in season 3 originally, so I guess I was just assuming he was dead. When did he get a new hand?

Spike was after his soul when he went to Africa. The writers were trying to be stealthy, badly. Even though it was bloody obvious that he didn't just want his chip out. But at the end of the trials, the demon said to spike, "Now you'll get what you wanted, vampire. Your sooooooooouuuuuuul."

Stupid spike. Taking up entirely too much screen time this episode. He was better last week when he was just walk-by-quippy man. "Right. So, how you been?" to wesley's dad was the best.

And, by the way, I hate UPN columbus, which shows Angel on thursday night instead of wednesday, so I have to see this thread sitting around for a whole day before I can actually read it. And then they don't show the preview for next week, which I'm actually ok with.

 

[Nightfall]

And when he smothered Wesley in a hospital bed.

For some reason, I thought Lindsey was dead. Course, I've been watching the old seasons on TNT, and Lindsey is in them, and really only started watching Angel in season 3 originally, so I guess I was just assuming he was dead. When did he get a new hand?

Again Season 2. And no he didn't die. He just drove off in a truck after he and Angel freed some people from where Lindsey got his original hand.

 

[John Crichton]

Spike was after his soul when he went to Africa. The writers were trying to be stealthy, badly. Even though it was bloody obvious that he didn't just want his chip out. But at the end of the trials, the demon said to spike, "Now you'll get what you wanted, vampire. Your sooooooooouuuuuuul."

This is more of a general opinion than a response :

I still don't think that Spike went through the trials specifically to get his soul back. He's always been an opportunist. He tells the demon to make him how he was so he could give Buffy what she deserved. Considering the sorce (a demon) of the soul-giver, one could think that he just wanted to be the same old vampire, pre-chip. It's kinda like making a poorly worded wish. The demon twisted what Spike wanted around his words, and using the Buffy comment as a fulcrum. Spike, then seeing his opportunity to actually be with Buffy on another level that he never could have pre-soul went the good-guy route.

Remember, Spike is a vengeful bastard and no better than Angel/Angelus in that reguard. I think Spike has been lying to himself and everyone else for a long time now. And with this prophecy, he may have won a single fight with Angel and he Angel be down on his luck and himself right now, but the title of the show is still Angel the last time I checked. Angel has been through considerably more torment than Spike at this point in their immortality. Spike may be on top now, but it will be Angel who eventually saves the day. Blonde just complicates matters and is fun to watch.

And, by the way, I hate UPN columbus, which shows Angel on thursday night instead of wednesday, so I have to see this thread sitting around for a whole day before I can actually read it. And then they don't show the preview for next week, which I'm actually ok with.

Don't sweat the preview, there wasn't one. We won't see a new Angel until (most likely) next year.

 

[Henry]

Ah, the great season 6 debate: Was Spike after his soul, or not?

I think he was: From the " is gonna see a change," to "give Buffy what she deserves," I think he started, fought, and received what he wished. When he spoke to Buffy in Season 7, (episode where Spike was being manipulated to kill people), he told her that she should get over her self-centeredness, because "the soul I got for myself."

I think by "what she deserved", Buffy needed another champion, with the ability to do good; not a chipped lapdog. He got tired of being conflicted, not quite monster and not quite man, but he could never go back to being completely as he was; it wasn't the chip that changed him - it was Buffy. He'd do anything, evil or good, for her, and proved it many times in Seasons 5 and 6. In my estimation, love for a woman changed him, and respect for the woman made him decide to regain a soul.

But that's the beauty of those last two episodes in S6; you could read it either way; Either Spike was being noble against type, or he's lying or deluding himself right now. The trick is, we won't know until Shanshu actually comes to the fore, again.

But I still stand by the fact that Spike is different from Angel in his desire, and his focus. Angel over time, has lost both, and I think a big struggle for him this season will be regaining it.

 

[Asmo]

I never liked Spike.
I can´t belive that people actually thinks he´s a cool character. Is it just me who remember the scene when he tries to rape Buffy in her bathroom? After that I just can´t stand him. To me it´s obvious that he went to the demon trials to get the chip removed to start slaughter again and kill Buffy. One of the strenghts of the show is that it shows how genuinly EVIL vampires are. One of the strongest scenes of the serie so far is when Angels old nemises ( can`t remember his name) finds his family slaughtered by Angelus,and finds his little daughter hiding behind a table (?). She is a vampire,but still a very young, loved daughter. He does the only right thing: he carries her out of the house only to see her consumed by the sun. He knew that there was no way for her to become good or regain her humanity,she was forever lost. This is how I look at Spike; a soulless killer, forever lost without hope to ever regain humanity.
I like Angel (as a show) a lot, but I don´t like Spike stealing the spotlight and disrupting the chemistry among the rest of the characters. The last two episodes makes me feel that´s hope for this season,but so far it has been very dissapointing, imho.
Damn you,Spike


stevelabny wrote:
"Wesley was the second Watcher on Buffy in season 3. (did he come with Faith? Or was he giles-replacement? memory fuzzy.) "

As I remember it,he was the replacement for Giles.

stevelabny wrote:
"He got kicked out of the Watchers , so he became a rogue demon hunter (whats a rogue demon?)"

I don´t think that there´s any rogue demons ,just demon hunters that are "rogue" as in Wesleys classic lone hero entrance in his patethic leather outfit. Great stuff!!


Asmo

 

[stevelabny]

I never liked Spike.
I can´t belive that people actually thinks he´s a cool character. Is it just me who remember the scene when he tries to rape Buffy in her bathroom? After that I just can´t stand him.

Well, to me that scene was entirely out of character for where Spike was at the time. It always bothered me. But I do wonder why some people think Spike is unredeemable for that but were ready to redeem him for all his other murders and atrocities. Let's be perfectly honest, Angel and Spike have BOTH been way to evil to be redeemed. Just for watching them we should probably all burn. But they make for fun tv :shrugs::

stevelabny wrote:
"He got kicked out of the Watchers , so he became a rogue demon hunter (whats a rogue demon?)"

I don´t think that there´s any rogue demons ,just demon hunters that are "rogue" as in Wesleys classic lone hero entrance in his patethic leather outfit. Great stuff!!

For those that don't remember, the line "What's a rogue demon?" was Coredlia's immediately after Wesley returned and proclaimed himself a rogue demon hunter.
the stupidity is hers, not mine

 

[Viking Bastard]

One of the strenghts of the show is that it shows how genuinly EVIL vampires are.

Really? One of the things I always liked about Buffy is how the Vamps and demons tend to be more multilayered than that. Generally nasty, but not neccaserally right out evil.

 

[RatPunk]

"Wesley was the second Watcher on Buffy in season 3. (did he come with Faith? Or was he giles-replacement? memory fuzzy.) "

As I remember it,he was the replacement for Giles.

Wesley was Giles replacement only after Gwendolyn Post showed up as Giles original replacement and tried to take the Glove of Mhenygon for her own evil purposes. So technically he was the third Watcher that season.

stevelabny wrote:
"He got kicked out of the Watchers , so he became a rogue demon hunter (whats a rogue demon?)"

I don´t think that there´s any rogue demons ,just demon hunters that are "rogue" as in Wesleys classic lone hero entrance in his patethic leather outfit. Great stuff!!

Asmo

I believe it was Cordelia who originally posed that particualr question when Wesley first showed up on Angel and introduced himself as such. stevelabny was merely quoting without the quotes.

 

[RatPunk]

For those that don't remember, the line "What's a rogue demon?" was Coredlia's immediately after Wesley returned and proclaimed himself a rogue demon hunter.
the stupidity is hers, not mine

See, I was right.