Angel Season Finale (Spoilers)

[John Crichton]

Seduction, you got to love it.

How many of you see that window one day being normal, Angel grows use to looking out at a sunshining day, then poof.

It was a fair ending for a show that could be cancelled, you don't want to leave things up in the air. I would have hated to see a cliff-hanger and never know (SAVE FARSCAPE, BRING BACK FIREFLY).

Conner is still out there, Cordy can return if she wants. The group has resources and the means to expand their story lines.

I was thinking the same thing about the show's ending as I was watching it. It could serve as a fitting series as well as just this season's. Kinda surreal, IMO.

And the sunlight thing wouldn't really bug Angel too much as he would catch on fire and probably have just enough time to get out of it to survive. Now if he fell asleep at his desk, that's another thing...

"Mr. Angel? Man, there's alot of dust in here, I should probably call maintenence..."

 

[Hand of Evil]

Last week I had a FAR OUT there thought now I am so sure it is!

Conner equals Caleb from the alternate DemonRealm!

 

[Nightfall]

Maybe. Or he just got "infused" with power by the First. (Hey just because it can't interact doesn't mean it can give away SOME power.)

 

[Wayside]

Last week I had a FAR OUT there thought now I am so sure it is!

Conner equals Caleb from the alternate DemonRealm!

This kind of cheese doesn't fly on Buffy the way it does on Angel. I like the aura of mystery about the world Buffy hangs onto, personally. Angel can get mleh at times, in that regard.

 

[Dinkeldog]

Geez.... Make one mistake and the whole world comes crashing down on you.

No, it's "Make one mistake and refuse to fix it and the whole world comes crashing down on you." The initial slip was forgivable--I just have no idea why you refused to edit your own post.

 

[Samnell]

Let me preface this by saying I really like Conner. I may be strange.

Conner insisted to Angel that you couldn't be saved by a lie or something like that. Then before that last ep we had the end of the arc with Jasmine about free will. Angel helpfully told us that Jasmine wasn't just bad for the eating people thing, but for robbing people of free will.

So what does Angel do? Rather than trying to fix things honestly (was Conner any farther gone than Faith? can't be by much) he lets the Evil Lawyers brain-zap everyone blissfully defying everything he said to Jasmine all of a week ago. However, Angel's decision does fit with a pattern he seems to have of aways doing the wrong thing for Conner.

If we're to give the writers credit for some kind of consistency, then Conner's mind-zap fix has to go wrong at some point. It's not like W&H did it out of the goodness of their hearts. If there is a fifth season (pleasepleaseplease) I'd expect the Conner thing to play out during it.

Angel took the easy way out, which displeases me. I expected better from him, even if he was true to pattern.

Of course if Cordy's gone for good (pleasepleaseplease) and Gunn goes evil or something vis-a-vis the panther (pleasepleaseplease) we have some openings in the roster. There's one for a Buffy alumnus and one left over to bring Conner back in.

I don't know what it is, but I've been vastly more interested in Conner's struggles than I ever was with any of Angel's. They've been far more compelling to me.

 

[John Crichton]

Let me preface this by saying I really like Conner. I may be strange.

Conner insisted to Angel that you couldn't be saved by a lie or something like that. Then before that last ep we had the end of the arc with Jasmine about free will. Angel helpfully told us that Jasmine wasn't just bad for the eating people thing, but for robbing people of free will.

So what does Angel do? Rather than trying to fix things honestly (was Conner any farther gone than Faith? can't be by much) he lets the Evil Lawyers brain-zap everyone blissfully defying everything he said to Jasmine all of a week ago. However, Angel's decision does fit with a pattern he seems to have of aways doing the wrong thing for Conner.

If we're to give the writers credit for some kind of consistency, then Conner's mind-zap fix has to go wrong at some point. It's not like W&H did it out of the goodness of their hearts. If there is a fifth season (pleasepleaseplease) I'd expect the Conner thing to play out during it.

Angel took the easy way out, which displeases me. I expected better from him, even if he was true to pattern.

Connor was obviously beyond saving. He defied Angel and the concept of good again and again. Faith killed innocents but at the very least there was a twisted reason behind it. Connor killed an innocent, let others die, has purposefully been working against everyone of his own free will and was going to kill again. He even killed the one thing he loved, Jasmine and he was going to kill Cordy. In contrast, Faith made some mistakes but was still a strong character. She never tried to kill herself. She was self-destructive but not to the point where Connor was. Connor was a coward. Instead of trying to make things better for himself or look for help he was going to kill himself, some innocent folks and the women he and his father love. What else did you want Angel to do? Let Connor continue?

Of course if Cordy's gone for good (pleasepleaseplease) and Gunn goes evil or something vis-a-vis the panther (pleasepleaseplease) we have some openings in the roster. There's one for a Buffy alumnus and one left over to bring Conner back in.

Conner does not deserve to be "back in." He's done his damage and left his mark on the world in which his own father didn't even want others to remember. Cordy does as she is an interesting character, especially after all that has gone on with her. I would like nothing more than to see her character back with Team Angel. I have a feeling that she may be their only salvation now that the others have made an agreement with W&H...

 

[Samnell]

Connor was obviously beyond saving. He defied Angel and the concept of good again and again.

And Angel & Company practically drove him to most of it. Look at how they dealt with him. He spent his whole life hearing how evil Angel was. AI's answer to this was just to tell him, over and over again, that Angel just wasn't evil and he just had to take their word for it. There's as much reason behind what Conner did as there was for Faith.

Connor killed an innocent, let others die, has purposefully been working against everyone of his own free will and was going to kill again. He even killed the one thing he loved, Jasmine and he was going to kill Cordy.

Yep, he was hitting bottom. I'm not saying he was playing nice and did no wrong. He was ideally placed for some kind of beginning of redemption, though.

She was self-destructive but not to the point where Connor was. Connor was a coward.

Conner had nowhere else to turn. He was convinced that his father and his father's friends weren't going to help him or even try to forgive him. Certainly it wasn't right to involve innocents, but I don't fault him for feeling like he had nowhere to go and no one to turn to and wanting to end it all.

Instead of trying to make things better for himself or look for help he was going to kill himself, some innocent folks and the women he and his father love. What else did you want Angel to do? Let Connor continue?

How about stop him and try to help him? And I don't mean help in the lame "let's all be friends" un-attempts Angel's tried. If you ask me, the best way to have gotten through to Conner would have been to stop the mall thing and make it clear that while he'd done wrong (kind of like Angel) and needed help and they were going to give it to him. Conner obviously knew he had a problem and he spent all season looking for someone who would accept him and love him that didn't keep giving him mixed messages.

He's done his damage and left his mark on the world in which his own father didn't even want others to remember.

And which he made himself a hypocrite over. Free will's great, but not for my kid! A long, hard road of redemption is ok for someone who tried to kill my girlfriend, but not for my kid!

Cordy does as she is an interesting character, especially after all that has gone on with her. I would like nothing more than to see her character back with Team Angel. I have a feeling that she may be their only salvation now that the others have made an agreement with W&H...

I would like nothing more than to never see her again. She's just repellent. I only came close to liking her when she went evil.

Conner seems to hold the same kind of interest for me as Cordy does for you.

Also I really hate reset button plot-twists, which is what the "resolution" to Conner's arc was. They're the product of lazy writers who can't be bothered to actually confront where they put characters so they just throw away otherwise quality output that dared venture away from relatively save and tame areas. Voyager did this a lot. Who cares if so and so nearly destroyed the ship one day, because we'll hit reset and everything will be ok.

I'd much rather see characters confront their past acts (unless of course I just totally hate them like Cordy) and the consequences they bring than just poof them out of existance. It's one of the reasons I like seeing Faith back, actually.

 

[John Crichton]

And Angel & Company practically drove him to most of it. Look at how they dealt with him. He spent his whole life hearing how evil Angel was. AI's answer to this was just to tell him, over and over again, that Angel just wasn't evil and he just had to take their word for it. There's as much reason behind what Conner did as there was for Faith.

There's the trust thing again. Connor was devoid of common sense. The confusion over what is right and wrong thing excuse ended earlier in the year. Connor was clearly making his own choices and generally acting like a brat. Not once did he show remorse for his actions. Faith did and in a much shorter time. There is a fine line between what the those 2 characters did. By the time Connor killed Jasmine he didn't want to be redeemed. And like I said, what you have had Angel do? What was going to redeem Connor? What could any of them done?

Yep, he was hitting bottom. I'm not saying he was playing nice and did no wrong. He was ideally placed for some kind of beginning of redemption, though.

As I said, redemption was no where in sight. Connor was becomming increasing unstable and was already a danger to everyone he encountered.

Conner had nowhere else to turn. He was convinced that his father and his father's friends weren't going to help him or even try to forgive him. Certainly it wasn't right to involve innocents, but I don't fault him for feeling like he had nowhere to go and no one to turn to and wanting to end it all.

Fair enough. If you don't want to see the earlier actions of Team Angel trying to accept Connor then so be it. I was under the impression that they all made an attempt to accept him. It was Connor's own insecurities (probably driven into him by Holtz), hostility and notions of right/wrong that led him to where he was.

How about stop him and try to help him? And I don't mean help in the lame "let's all be friends" un-attempts Angel's tried. If you ask me, the best way to have gotten through to Conner would have been to stop the mall thing and make it clear that while he'd done wrong (kind of like Angel) and needed help and they were going to give it to him. Conner obviously knew he had a problem and he spent all season looking for someone who would accept him and love him that didn't keep giving him mixed messages.

I don't blame Connor for being confused in general after his return from the hell-dimension. His story has been a sad one right from the start. But I can say that Team Angel tried to help him. Angel tried many time to help him by either being there for him or giving him space. None of that worked. So I give the question again: What would you have had Angel do? Connor wasn't going to stop his behavior any time soon.

And which he made himself a hypocrite over. Free will's great, but not for my kid! A long, hard road of redemption is ok for someone who tried to kill my girlfriend, but not for my kid!

He did give him redemption. He have him a "normal" life and chance to be in a loving and not twisted family. He took away all the brainwashing the Holtz did to him. He took away all the doubt and mind games. He gave him a second chance. That is not taking away free will. He made a choice for his son which all parents do. He gave Connor a chance at happiness but at the cost of any future relationship with him, the ultimate sacrifice. I'm sure Angel would have died for him.

Do you honestly think there was anything else Angel could have done to make Connor happy?

I would like nothing more than to never see her again. She's just repellent. I only came close to liking her when she went evil.

Conner seems to hold the same kind of interest for me as Cordy does for you.

It's probably best to just it at that. I dig Cordy, you don't, that's cool with me.

Also I really hate reset button plot-twists, which is what the "resolution" to Conner's arc was. They're the product of lazy writers who can't be bothered to actually confront where they put characters so they just throw away otherwise quality output that dared venture away from relatively save and tame areas. Voyager did this a lot. Who cares if so and so nearly destroyed the ship one day, because we'll hit reset and everything will be ok.

I'd much rather see characters confront their past acts (unless of course I just totally hate them like Cordy) and the consequences they bring than just poof them out of existance. It's one of the reasons I like seeing Faith back, actually.

I guess the difference we have here is that I don't see it as lazy writing. I like it when shows are willing to change direction. Angel still has to live with what he did, the others had very little stake in that. Connor got what was coming to him and because of his father's love was given a second chance. I guarantee that we will see consequences to Angel's actions. Joss doesn't let these things go so easily...

 

[Samnell]

By the time Connor killed Jasmine he didn't want to be redeemed.

Here we diverge. I think killing Jasmine is about the time he started wanting it. The whole stopping to talk to Angel instead of just blowing everything up out of hand thing screamed "Cry for Help" to me. A sick and twisted cry for help, but then again I'm not arguing Conner was all on his rocker.

I think Angel stopping him and not brain-wiping him would have been a good start. Conner's spent a season learning everything is a lie. Love is a lie. Good is a lie. His life is a lie. I think he was ready to give the long walk into the light a try.

Connor wasn't going to stop his behavior any time soon.

That's the sticking point. I think the whole season was a part of the process of getting Conner ready for something like this. And instead of stopping him and giving him a hug or something Angel sticks him with the +1 Dagger of life-erasing.

He have him a "normal" life and chance to be in a loving and not twisted family. He took away all the brainwashing the Holtz did to him. He took away all the doubt and mind games.

Except for the new round authored by everyone's favorite ensouled vampire.

He gave him a second chance.

If you call erasing his existance a second chance. That Conner in the house where Angel reprised his stalker persona is not the Conner we've seen before. They just share a body.

He gave Connor a chance at happiness but at the cost of any future relationship with him, the ultimate sacrifice. I'm sure Angel would have died for him.

Sure.

Do you honestly think there was anything else Angel could have done to make Connor happy?

I don't know, but I would have much rather seen him have some kind of serious deep TV talk with Conner that convinces Bomb Boy he needs to do some thinking about his choices. Angel already had his plan when he went in, so far as I can see tell. No more talking or trying to get to understand Conner. Let's just brain-zap him.

I guess the difference we have here is that I don't see it as lazy writing. I like it when shows are willing to change direction. Angel still has to live with what he did, the others had very little stake in that. Connor got what was coming to him and because of his father's love was given a second chance. I guarantee that we will see consequences to Angel's actions. Joss doesn't let these things go so easily... [/B]

I don't see the brainzap as a second chance. To me, Angel killed his son. All the memories, all the experiences, however horrific, were what made Conner Conner. Angel wiped that away.

I'm ok with shows changing direction too (well ok, as long as I like the new direction) but I don't see anything about Conner that's necessarily incompatible with the new direction. His mistrust of magic might come in damn useful considering how AI's partnering up with W&H.

My hope now is that Conner eventually shrugs off the W&H brainwashing and reappears a little more well-adjusted from it. That could salvage the brainwipe for me. Conner ends up remembering everything, but somehow also keeps something from the Brady Bunch of Left-Lane traffic to balance him out.

Otherwise it's just another lie perpetrated on him and after Jasmine I think he's given up on letting himself survive through lies.