Angel Season Finale (Spoilers)

[Tarrasque Wrangler]

I think we can agree what Holtz did to Conner was evil. How it is different from what Angel did to Conner? I'm sure Holtz could say lots of things about how a life with Angel would be beyond redemption and unspeakably horrible to justify his deeds too. Isn't it hypocritical to say Holtz did wrong and Angel did right by doing the exact same thing.

THE EXACT SAME THING?

Now hold on there.

Holtz BROKE Connor. He took him away from a father who loved him, and raised him in the most nightmarish Hell imaginable. He brainwashed him daily about how evil Angel was, knowing full well that Angel was ensouled and remorseful of his former actions. He treated Connor like cannon fodder in a war Connor never volunteered for. Holtz did awful, abusive, manipulative, vengeful things to this boy who treated him like a father.

Angel understood that his son was in a bad place that he could not escape from. Connor had consistently shown that he was a danger to himself and others. What he wanted was a normal life (watch the scene with him and the suicidal cop on the roof), but this was an unattainable goal, as he had no yardstick to measure what "normal" was. He was in terrible emotional pain, trauma, and might not ever be happy again. Maybe with years of intense, round-the-clock therapy in an institutional setting, he could have been cured, but just as easily not. I think if Connor had had the power to do what Angel and W&H did for him, he would have done that himself a long time ago.

What Holtz did was abuse, plain and simple. What Angel did was provide a dream life for his son that he never could have had on his own. If, to you, this is a horrible thing, then I'm glad for you that you don't know the pain of having terrible trauma in your past that you can't forget about, no matter how hard you try.

 

[John Crichton]

THE EXACT SAME THING?

Now hold on there.

Holtz BROKE Connor. He took him away from a father who loved him, and raised him in the most nightmarish Hell imaginable. He brainwashed him daily about how evil Angel was, knowing full well that Angel was ensouled and remorseful of his former actions. He treated Connor like cannon fodder in a war Connor never volunteered for. Holtz did awful, abusive, manipulative, vengeful things to this boy who treated him like a father.

Angel understood that his son was in a bad place that he could not escape from. Connor had consistently shown that he was a danger to himself and others. What he wanted was a normal life (watch the scene with him and the suicidal cop on the roof), but this was an unattainable goal, as he had no yardstick to measure what "normal" was. He was in terrible emotional pain, trauma, and might not ever be happy again. Maybe with years of intense, round-the-clock therapy in an institutional setting, he could have been cured, but just as easily not. I think if Connor had had the power to do what Angel and W&H did for him, he would have done that himself a long time ago.

What Holtz did was abuse, plain and simple. What Angel did was provide a dream life for his son that he never could have had on his own. If, to you, this is a horrible thing, then I'm glad for you that you don't know the pain of having terrible trauma in your past that you can't forget about, no matter how hard you try.

That was fairly well put.

I don't know if I got my point across before, but this is essentially what I was trying to say. Connor was doomed when he arrived back on earth. He never even had a chance against what Holtz did to him and put him through.

Originally posted by Samnell
Exactly, if this turns out to be something Conner eventually sees through or the spell somehow gets broke and Angel has to deal with the consequences of killing his son this wont look half so bad. But season five isn't a done deal and until it is I'm not making any assumptions about it. Until I hear otherwise, I'm considering the Conner arc done as of last Wednesday.

If in season five this turns out to be some way to help Conner get something like a normal mentality and he can then come back and fight demons I'll be satisfied. But that hasn't happened yet and might not.

I guess we can argue until we're both dead and bloated about the writer's intensions, Season 5 and so on.

You may consider Connor's storyline a done deal and have already passed judgement on the show based on that. The fact of the matter is that we have no clue what actually happened to Connor or what was done to him, assumably by W&H. It seems to me that you are frustrated by the fact that you'll never know what happened to Connor and won't see more of him "in action" because you dig the character. I think that, given Joss' track record we can expect more than just a casual brushing off of the character. If this is frustration over there potentially not being a 5th season for some resolution to all this, then so be it. I can understand that. But it's very difficult to call it as it stands now.

You didn't like the way it ended. Others would disagree and I happen to be one of them. To me, what happened to that character was closure. Bring on Season 5...

 

[Wayside]

I had a longer response, but I think this is the key point so I'll condense:

I disagree. This is fiction, anything can happen. Conner was a worthwhile and interesting character who shouldn't have just been thrown away like that.

It makes no sense for me to write him out of the show. It reeks of writers creating a character with the plan to kill them off, just so they can have that character do things they'd never do to a character they want to keep around for fear of having to confront the consequences.

Maybe it's just me. I know if I had my way the show would be Conner with Angel in a recurring role. Kartheiser is better at broody than Boreanaz will ever be.

Not anything can happen in fiction. The writers walk a fine line between writing a show that people want to watch and writing a show that doesn't suck. These things aren't entirely mutually exclusive, but to a great extent they are.

I wasn't entirely a fan of the Connor resolution either (not because I like the character, just because it seemed mechanical, clunky even), but we have few details on it at this point so speculation is idle. But hey, it's Joss Whedon, not Marcel Proust. Entertainment value trumps sensibility.

 

[John Crichton]

Just a little detour...

Angel? Where are you...

Now back to the discussion.

 

[Cor Azer]

I'm quite on the wagon hoping for Angel Season 5, mostly because there are a lot of questions remaining.

I highly doubt that Connor's story is done - I can't think of a single story arc from Joss in Buffy or Angel that ended completely happy for a character. Admittedly, Angel probably isn't greatly pleased right now, but his son is (supposedly) getting a normal, happy life, something most parents wish for their children.

I suspect though, that they'll wait until a way into a (hoping) fifth season before exploring much of the Connor sitch except for some extra Angel brooding... probably even taking Vincent's name out of the opening credits for a while. But I'm quite certain he'll be back (assumign a fifth season), because Joss won't let a character leave the show happy like that.

 

[KnowTheToe]

I missed this episode of Angel, and am a little confused about the accounts I have read. Did everyone get brain washed at W&H?

 

[Negative Zero]

I missed this episode of Angel, and am a little confused about the accounts I have read. Did everyone get brain washed at W&H?

lol, no. Angel and Co. ended world peace. for better or for worse, Jasmine was going to end war and hunger and, more than likely, eventually disease. at the cost of a few dozen people, she would have saved millions. Angel Inc. effectively stopped that from happening. W&H see this as batting for their team. or at the very least they're trying to create doubt in the crew as to whether it was the right thing to do.

afterall, it's never been shown that Jaz was just evil. even after most of her power was gone, she was still claiming nothing but love for the world. after she'd lost, there would have been no reason to go on with the charade. especially if she planned to kill everyone, anyway. plus she reffered to herself as "a Power-that-was", so it's likely that the whole situation isn't a cut-and-dried-black-and-white one.

in addition, power corrupts, remember? they've just given the AI posse a hell of a lot of power. power that they never sought, that they didn't work for/towards. unearned power/money is the easiest to abuse and to get lost in. it's a stroke of genius, if you ask me. ... you did, right?

~NegZ

 

[John Crichton]

I'm quite on the wagon hoping for Angel Season 5, mostly because there are a lot of questions remaining.

I highly doubt that Connor's story is done - I can't think of a single story arc from Joss in Buffy or Angel that ended completely happy for a character. Admittedly, Angel probably isn't greatly pleased right now, but his son is (supposedly) getting a normal, happy life, something most parents wish for their children.

I suspect though, that they'll wait until a way into a (hoping) fifth season before exploring much of the Connor sitch except for some extra Angel brooding... probably even taking Vincent's name out of the opening credits for a while. But I'm quite certain he'll be back (assumign a fifth season), because Joss won't let a character leave the show happy like that.

Just so you know, Angel will be back for Season 5...

That's what my link above was about.

 

[Umbran]

at the cost of a few dozen people, she would have saved millions.

I think you missed one vital point. It's, "At the cost of a few dozen people, and everyone's free will, she would have saved millions."

A machiavellian can pull an "ends justify the means" on the few dozen people. But, as Angel pointed out, the lives of everyone on the planet become essentially worthless if there's no free will.

 

[John Crichton]

I think it also bears mentioning that Jasmine had to eat a lot to keep her power going. So she would probably end up munching at least few thousand folks a year to keep the mojo at full strength. Plus, there's the whole temple thing....