Any Confirmation of Pay-for-PDFs?

[breschau]

It would be foolish on Wizards part to charge for digital access to books you already purchased, isn't that what the subscription is supposed to cover? If that happens, I'd really have to question a DDI subscription. Everyone would just do what we did for 3e, scan and file share. Can't stop digital access these days.

I used to agree with you. Not anymore. If I want a pdf, I'll pay for it. If I want a print book, I'll pay for that too. One does not grant free access to the other. And there's no reason it should. If you want large print, you buy it. A French edition? Pay for it. Same with any other language, any print size, any format. Each is a unique and separate entity. And you should pay for each one. Tanstaafl.

I do think that the pdf should be around half the price of the print book as the biggest contributor to the cost of a book is printing fees. If they don't half the cost then I'll have to pick which version I buy, instead of buying both.

You can't say "I love this and want to keep playing it, but I will steal their books and put them out of business" at the same time. Not without being a total @#$%.

 

[Thasmodious]

I used to agree with you. Not anymore. If I want a pdf, I'll pay for it. If I want a print book, I'll pay for that too. One does not grant free access to the other. And there's no reason it should. If you want large print, you buy it. A French edition? Pay for it. Same with any other language, any print size, any format. Each is a unique and separate entity. And you should pay for each one.

I very much disagree. I fall firmly on the side of consumer rights, not corporate rights (although that is a much bigger issue not for a messageboard on D&D ). But if I buy a book, pay to download a song, or buy a DVD, I have the right (and the law currently agrees, mostly) to scan it, copy it, burn it to CD, put it on multiple MP3 players, etc., the same way a D&D group typically purchases one copy of a supplement and shares it around the table. Everyone using a feat or prestige class from a Complete book doesn't each need their own copy of the book, neither reasonably or legally.

 

[Dragon Snack]

According to Bill Slavesic, printing only costs "a couple of thousands of dollars" and they can't offer a discount on pdf's because they have so many other expenses.

I think that's a load of bull too, but that's what he said at the D&D Q&A at Gen Con last year (the one in the tiniest room at Gen Con I've ever seen)...

 

[breschau]

I very much disagree. I fall firmly on the side of consumer rights, not corporate rights (although that is a much bigger issue not for a messageboard on D&D ). But if I buy a book, pay to download a song, or buy a DVD, I have the right (and the law currently agrees, mostly) to scan it, copy it, burn it to CD, put it on multiple MP3 players, etc., the same way a D&D group typically purchases one copy of a supplement and shares it around the table. Everyone using a feat or prestige class from a Complete book doesn't each need their own copy of the book, neither reasonably or legally.

1. You have no right to free stuff.

2. You don't know the law. Sharing a single physical copy of a book is not the equivalent to copying an mp3 to multiple devices. You can make a backup cd of your music. But if you lose/sell the original, you violate copyright if you keep the digital files or the backup. If your original is stolen, you still have to give up the dig files and backup. It's stupid, but it's the law. You have no right to a backup of a book you own, you can't scan it, copy it, or in any way reproduce it. You're purchasing that one copy of a book/cd/dvd/song, not the right to unlimited copies of it.

3. If the company you claim to support goes out of business because you are stealing from them, you destroy not only your enjoyment of that companies products, but prevent everyone else form enjoying it.

4. Get a job and pay for stuff. Stop stealing it.

5. Just wait until you actually produce something and want to earn a living from that. Once you make that change over, you'll realize how retarded it is to steal things that others have worked on.

 

[breschau]

According to Bill Slavesic, printing only costs "a couple of thousands of dollars" and they can't offer a discount on pdf's because they have so many other expenses.

I think that's a load of bull too, but that's what he said at the D&D Q&A at Gen Con last year (the one in the tiniest room at Gen Con I've ever seen)...

For decent paper, at around 300 pages, a paperback novel will cost $4000 to print 2500-3000 copies. WotC is printing a whole hell of a lot more than that. They're using much better paper and full-color printing. And as they're still printing in the states, instead of off-shore (as is the industry standard for full-color), they're almost doubling the cost to print. Sure, the more they print the lower the average cost goes, but the overall cost still goes up. Hardcover is a big jump from paperback.

Outside printing costs you have to consider all the art in a book. For every new piece you're talking several hundred dollars for a full-color illustration. Artists aren't big on bulk discounts from what I've seen. Then there's the cover. There's also paying the writers, the editors (developmental, copy-, proofreaders), the game designers, the book designers (cover, brand, edition look, interior text), the indexer, and so many others.

Considering the huge wholesaler discount publishers are required to give, WotC likely makes around 30% of retail per print copy sold, maybe less. For pdfs, WotC makes anywhere from 50-75% of retail. They make a whole lot more from pdf than print. Selling pdfs avoids roughly 1/3 the cost. Selling pdfs at any higher than 60% of the print copy cost is greed.

 

[MaelStorm]

The main reason I want to buy a PDF is to save the environment, save in shelf space, save in money. I'm willing to pay a decent price, but not full price. It should be a win-win situation, not a win-lose situation.

 

[MaelStorm]

I don't recall them giving any dates.

They should not make their customers wait. I'm willing to order KotS now. KotS is out on May 20th, that's in just 21 days! Will they wait until June 6th to offer their preview adventure?

 

[Thasmodious]

1. You have no right to free stuff.

2. You don't know the law. Sharing a single physical copy of a book is not the equivalent to copying an mp3 to multiple devices. You can make a backup cd of your music. But if you lose/sell the original, you violate copyright if you keep the digital files or the backup. If your original is stolen, you still have to give up the dig files and backup. It's stupid, but it's the law. You have no right to a backup of a book you own, you can't scan it, copy it, or in any way reproduce it. You're purchasing that one copy of a book/cd/dvd/song, not the right to unlimited copies of it.

3. If the company you claim to support goes out of business because you are stealing from them, you destroy not only your enjoyment of that companies products, but prevent everyone else form enjoying it.

4. Get a job and pay for stuff. Stop stealing it.

5. Just wait until you actually produce something and want to earn a living from that. Once you make that change over, you'll realize how retarded it is to steal things that others have worked on.

1. No one said anything about free stuff. Not talking about piracy, here.

2. Yes, I do. Its also a fairly fuzzy legal area right now, but again, like I said, I fall firmly on the side of consumer rights and electronic freedom.

3. No one buys 6 separate copies of every book for every member of the gaming group for the same game. No one buys a copy for the car, one for the office, one for the home, one for the place where the game takes place, and lastly a .pdf. Buying a book and copying it for personal use is not piracy, and it won't drive companies out of business.

4. I'm not stealing anything. Stop making assumptions about people you don't know. You know what they say about people who spend too much time making assumptions, don't you?

5. Buying something and then making copies of it for personal use is not stealing and it is still currently, legal, as much as the greedy corporations want to change that. Get some perspective.

 

[JohnSnow]

Considering the huge wholesaler discount publishers are required to give, WotC likely makes around 30% of retail per print copy sold, maybe less. For pdfs, WotC makes anywhere from 50-75% of retail. They make a whole lot more from pdf than print. Selling pdfs avoids roughly 1/3 the cost. Selling pdfs at any higher than 60% of the print copy cost is greed.

Purchase (or sale) price has nothing to do with what something costs to produce. You may have some vague concept of the law (although you seem to have a funny idea about ownership when you talk about losing the rights to something someone stole from you...), but your knowledge of basic business practices is pretty sketchy.

Price is something you set based on the value of the product you're providing. What's the utility of a digital edition compared to a physical book? It's less easily referenced at the table, but it can be put in multiple locations and all the books more easily transported. So, which wins out?

You're still playing the same game, and getting the same ruleset. If WotC decides to charge for a .pdf that you can put on, say, 5 computers, the place to start your pricing strategy is approximately that of a physical copy of the book, because you know how well that sells. Then, perhaps, you discount it based on a perceived lesser value.

But honestly, it has nothing to do with supply chain, distribution, or markups. That's why you pay $1 a song on iTunes, even though you might be able to buy a full album for $8 on Borders.

 

[baberg]

While I think they may do it, they definitely won't on the launch date due to pirates.

Since when does "not publishing a PDF" mean "no PDFs will be around for the pirates"? This isn't the forum for the discussion of piracy or consumer rights or anything, but "not having downloadable PDFs" is hardly a piracy prevention measure. I still expect to see the 3 core books online before June 6th. Heck, just today somebody said they had their hands on a copy of the PHB at a demo session, so the books are in the wild already.

Can't stop the signal.