Any Rules for Critical Failure?

[paulewaug]

So weapons have a 'threat range' for making a Critical Attack
but what about the other end of the scale?
Should there be a chance for Critical Failure/Fumble ( natural "1")?

Does anybody have any decent rules for doing this?

And how do you guys feel about this?!

 

[Crothian]

Here's what I like to use. One a roll of a Nat 1, they must make a Dex check DC 15. After that they roll a d20. If they failed the dex check, something worse happens. The straight d20 roll indicates the how bad the fumble is.

 

[Happiest_Sadist]

I do the critical faliures the same way as gritical hits. When the charachter rolls a natural 1, they make another attack roll. o If that also fails to hit, then they have left themself so badly unprotected that they provoke a critical hit. If they are using a ranged weapon, it jams/bowstring breaks, and they must either spend time to fix it or switch weapons.

 

[Mr Fidgit]

i use the DMG variant, if you roll a 1, then you make a Dex check 10+ to avoid a fumble

i wouldn't mind seeing a chart created for what the fumble does. like, if you fail the above Dex check, roll a 20 again to see what happens. on the high end (16-20?), it could be as simple as "you lose your weapon" or "ranged weapon is rendered useless (bow string breaks, etc.". the mid range (8-12?) could be dangerous, "you provoke attacks of opportunity from anyone who threatens your area". the lowest could be "you automatically strike an ally, or yourself if none are in weapons range (no to-hit roll required)"

 

[Drawmack]

I do it that critical fumble = inverse(critical hit).

In other words is weapon crits on 19-20 then crit failure is 1-2.

Rolling in either of these ranges only threatens the crit or failure. In order to acctually determine if it is critical you roll another attack (at the same mods). If that one would hit then a crit threat is indeed a crit, but a fumble is saved. If that one would miss then a crit is just a normal hit but a fumble is indead a fumble.

A fumble takes a full round action to pick up the weapon.

It's good enough for me without bogging down battle too much.

 

[Crothian]

i wouldn't mind seeing a chart created for what the fumble does. like, if you fail the above Dex check, roll a 20 again to see what happens. on the high end (16-20?), it could be as simple as "you lose your weapon" or "ranged weapon is rendered useless (bow string breaks, etc.". the mid range (8-12?) could be dangerous, "you provoke attacks of opportunity from anyone who threatens your area". the lowest could be "you automatically strike an ally, or yourself if none are in weapons range (no to-hit roll required)"

I used to have one, but now I just make it situation. Although when I DM aagain I'll write up a chart that gives basic examples for what might happen.

 

[Jeph]

I do it that critical fumble = inverse(critical hit).

In other words is weapon crits on 19-20 then crit failure is 1-2.

This makes no sense. A rapier is crit 18-20 cause it's easier to handle and direct. So it would have a lesser chance of a critical failure than other weapons, not greater. I'd do it that the crit fail range is extended by 1 for every point of the crit multiplier beyond x2. So, a battle axe would have a crit fail range of 1-2, and a scythe would have a crit fail range of 1-3.

 

[dvvega]

IMC we use the reverse critical hit system previously mentioned,

if you hit ... nothing bad happens
if you miss ... you draw an AOO (or miss a standard action fumbling with missle weapon)

if you roll another 1 ... you're flatfooted and open to AOOs (you break your missle weapon and must fix it after combat).

I use the 20/20/hit = death variant,

however i thought 1/1/miss = your own death would be a little harsh so it's just flat footed

As to the critical fumble range = critical hit range ...

Jeph argued that the range means it's easier to handle and direct. I have to disagree. The reason the pointier weapons like a rapier have a higher range (I think) is due to their very nature. They can be inserted between armour plating easier, find the hole in the chain links, etc. And once it goes it, it bypasses muscle much better and bones etc etc.

The rapier is quite a nice weapon, but to be truly expert you need to train long and hard. I would say the fumble range = crit range. However I would modify this. If you're weapon focused it would reduce the fumble range by 1 ... specialise it would reduce by another 1 (at no time will you get a 0 fumble range since it's all random - however one could argue that a true master would never fumble his weapon).

IMC using the 1/1/miss system ...
any weapon related feat (that specifically requires the chocie of a weapon - focus/specialisation/finesse/imp critical) reduces first the fumble range by 1 and then the severity of fumbles ... or something like that.

 

[paulewaug]

so far there have been some good ideas.

I have to say I kind of agree with Jeph,
IMO if you are Trained in the use of a weapon that you could have more control over, the better off you would be.

I think it would be a lot easier to recover from a bad Rapier swipe or thrust than to try to recover from a bad swing with a Great Axe.

The really high crit multiplier weapons do seem like they could be unwieldy and leave you off balance on a realy bad swing, where the low multipliers with a broader threat range seem like they have better control or technique.

 

[Celebrim]

I use the roll a 1, make a dex check vs. DC 10 system. If the dex check fails, then depending on how bad it fails and your current situation is how bad the thing that happens to you is. Usually it is dropping a weapon, applying weapon damage to the weapon itself because you struck something clumsily, becoming flat footed or off balance, falling down or the like. Ocassionally, if you are firing into melee or such it means shooting at the wrong target or if the check was really really bad hitting yourself in the foot.

If there are situational modifiers that effect balance I tend to apply those as well.

I've been meaning to write up a system to formalize that, but I haven't had the time.

For weapons that I really don't like and find unrealistic and clumsy, such as all the double weapons but the quarterstaff, I have an enlarged fumble range of 1-2 or higher depending on just how stupid the weapon looks or how difficult it would actually be to weild. Realisticly, I probably should add the scythe to the list with increased fumble range, but it hasn't come up yet and I really don't have anything against the scythe mechanicswise.