D&D 5E Anyone else think the Bard concept is just silly?

[Brandegoris]

Anyone else think the Bard concept is just silly?

No. I suspect you think most fairy tales are silly too, but they are the roots of mediaeval fantasy.

You would be wronng though

 

[Chaosmancer]

If the Book about the South was Entitled "Southern Summers" and mentioned the weather that Much we could be fairly certain of what it was about.
BARD is the "Title" of this class. Bards are linked Heavily to MUSIC. Ta da!

Einstein didn't claim to be a Bard either so yeah...It makes sense that though he was a great Violinist it wasn't his primary focus. So If Einstein starts claiming that he should be referred to as a Bard and that he always be addressed as such, then I think its fair that his music would be expected to be front and center. Can't really be any clearer.
Also I don't play a bard that plays music in combat. So I guess I covered that one.

I can't believe I'm about to be that person. I hate that person. And yet, I'm going to do it.

I'm going to reference the Dictionary.... I feel dirty doing this.



Dictionary.com

noun
1. (formerly) a person who composed and recited epic or heroic poems, often while playing the harp, lyre, or the like.
2. one of an ancient Celtic order of composers and reciters of poetry.
3. any poet.


noun
1. Armor. any of various pieces of defensive armor for a horse.
2. Cookery. a thin slice of fat or bacon secured to a roast of meat or poultry to prevent its drying out while cooking.

verb (used with object)
3. Armor. to caparison with bards.
4. Cookery. to secure thin slices of fat or bacon to (a roast of meat or poultry) before cooking.


British Dictionary definitions for bard


noun
1. (formerly) one of an ancient Celtic order of poets who recited verses about the exploits, often legendary, of their tribes (in modern times) a poet who wins a verse competition at a Welsh eisteddfod

2. (archaic or literary) any poet, esp one who writes lyric or heroic verse or is of national importance



noun
1. a piece of larding bacon or pork fat placed on game or lean meat during roasting to prevent drying out
2. an ornamental caparison for a horse

verb (transitive)
3. to place a bard on



Okay, so what do we see.

Well, we ignore everything about armor and bacon, those are obviously not what we are going for (I included them because I had no idea bacon was related to the word bard)

The Italics definition mentions music, the harp and the lyre specifically, and it is the first one. However, I don't think anyone has ever claimed that bards have zero connection to music. Of course there is a music connection, many old poems and sagas were set to music to make them easier to remember.

All the bold definitions simplify this. Poet, Poetry, Poems, Sagas, Epics. It is the poetic nature of the bard that is more important. Music is only a part of this because old poems were often set to music. They were not songs though, they were poems. Music was simply the vehicle they used to enhance the poem which was the core point.


So... yeah, Bards play instruments. They are trained in music, because many of the old poems and epics they would learn are put to music. Nothing about that means they are defined more by music than by the art form of the spoken word.

That is the point here, the more vital component is the words, not the music. And if a Bard playing a lyre causes you to get upset, tell them to get a drum instead. Small drums hanging from your side are easy to play while fighting, looks a lot less "silly".


But, at the end of the day, just like the Paladin is no longer the Knight of the Castle and the Barbarian is no longer from the Barbar tribes and the Druid isn't immediately a Celtic priest... Bard is just the DnDism name for the class. It includes the original content, but it expands upon it to make it more than it was before. That's just how it is.


Oh, and the "Southern Summers" book could still be about cotton farming, racism, southern culture, farming in general, oil fields, railroads, ect ect ect. The weather is just the setting, not the focus. Music for the bard is a single avenue, not the only path you can take.

 

[Brandegoris]

The dictionary is great. I appreciate the effort. Turn to the next person you see however and ask them to define what a bard is. See if they say " I think they played music".
I'm just saying that for most people the common thought is Musician Before Poet. I don't claim it is to the exclusion to anything else.
It is clear of course at this point that you do not find the bard silly in any way and that is super cool.
I do find it comical in most situations because the way the majority of players tend to play them in a cliché D&D manner ( which is to say how the bard has historically been portrayed in D&D), and that doesn't lend itself to serious combat most of the time.
I can see there are competent and god players in this thread that have taught me otherwise and given me hope for the bard as a more serious class and I appreciate that. Thank you

 

[steeldragons]

I would be shocked that anyone who wasn't into fantasy RPGs would have the foggiest idea what a "Bard" is.

Best you could hope for, I would guess, might be they can draw some half-forgotten reference to Shakespeare. Or, possibly, in the last few years, a couple of folks might reference the Tolkien character from the Hobbit movies.

 

[Garthanos]

I can't believe I'm about to be that person. I hate that person. And yet, I'm going to do it.

I'm going to reference the Dictionary.... I feel dirty doing this.

I responded with a poem earlier and it felt great even if it was a snarky one.

 

[Lord Twig]

Somehow having a person standing next to me reciting poetry while I'm fighting in a life or death struggle doesn't fill me with any more confidence that one that was standing there playing the banjo (I have seen this instrument in actual games).

That said I like the current version of the Bard in 5e. In general I still don't like the class, and I'm not going to play one, but it stands up very well compared to the other classes. In addition the emphasis on the magic of the Bard's songs, music, poetry, or whatever you call it, explains why you would have one in a small adventuring party. The Bard's music has magic, magic has power, I want that power on my side. Simple.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Such a wonderful comment filled with all the logic and discussion of... yeah, I'm too tired for sarcasm.

There is a difference between quantity and purpose.

You could read a book about the old south, and the heat and dryness of summer could be mentioned 100 times. The book is not about hot summers.

Just because the bard does have music tied into their identity does not mean that the entirety of their identity is music.

To throw out some examples off the top of my head. Both Einstein and Sherlock Holmes are famous and famously played the violin. They are not famous for playing the violin, in fact despite their musical prowess being quite above that of the average hobbyist, they would not be considered musicians, despite being proficient.

If you don't want the bard playing the lute in combat, don't have them do it. Done, they work just as well without it.

I would say that artistic performance is a big part of the Bard, though. It's just the prancing dandy minstrel Bard that is entirely a creature of hyperbolic stereotype.

Thing is, there is no reason to imagine the Bard singing and dancing instead of fighting, in combat. The DnD Bard certainly *can* do that, but it can just as easily not.

 

[Brandegoris]

I would say that artistic performance is a big part of the Bard, though. It's just the prancing dandy minstrel Bard that is entirely a creature of hyperbolic stereotype.

Thing is, there is no reason to imagine the Bard singing and dancing instead of fighting, in combat. The DnD Bard certainly *can* do that, but it can just as easily not.

Absolutely. And I think that is why this thread has been beneficial for me. I am not sorry to have started it ( though I may have ruffled some feathers!), because in the end I received good points of view.
I honestly seem to have just had the Misfortune to have players that make the bard the Stereotypical, "SILLY" dandy, fop minstrel and that has turned me way off.

I will be making my Half-Orc Death chanter Bard that only rocks out to Pre 1990's death metal/Speed metal and refuses to use his electric Mandolin in combat situations.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Absolutely. And I think that is why this thread has been beneficial for me. I am not sorry to have started it ( though I may have ruffled some feathers!), because in the end I received good points of view.
I honestly seem to have just had the Misfortune to have players that make the bard the Stereotypical, "SILLY" dandy, fop minstrel and that has turned me way off.

I will be making my Half-Orc Death chanter Bard that only rocks out to Pre 1990's death metal/Speed metal and refuses to use his electric Mandolin in combat situations.

One of my favorite bards was a faun (female satyr, more or less) violinist Bard who had a reflavored rapier that we flavored as her violin bow, to be fair.

Also, having rocked out on an electric mandolin, I have to approve.

 

[Aldarc]

The dictionary is great. I appreciate the effort. Turn to the next person you see however and ask them to define what a bard is. See if they say " I think they played music".

One should probably not conflate the ignorance of others as the deficiencies (or perceived "silliness") of the bard.

Somehow having a person standing next to me reciting poetry while I'm fighting in a life or death struggle doesn't fill me with any more confidence that one that was standing there playing the banjo (I have seen this instrument in actual games).

Full poems or poetic phrases from famous epics and sagas that inspire greatness?